dave stieb vs Jack Morris

[StanMarsh51]

I don't want to take out ANY years.

So either way you look at it (best stretch of their careers, or overall career numbers), Morris wasn't as good as Stieb.

So Morris was better solely because he pitched longer? Morris has 1000 more innings than Pedro...was he better than Pedro simply because he pitched longer?

 

[DragonfromTO]

Not following. Morris didn't have a 5.34 ERA over his last 1000 innings. (They both were clearly more than done, when they were done.)

So clearly you didn't read my post. It makes it tough to have a discussion if you do that.

 

[DragonfromTO]

But Steib didnt pitch those innings. If Morris would have only pitched between 1979 and 1988 he never would have had a losing season and his ERA would be much lower. It's career against career. Not adjusted career versus adjusted career.

From 1979 to 1988 Morris' ERA was still higher than Stieb's was for his entire career.

 

[broncosmitty]

From 1979 to 1988 Morris' ERA was still higher than Stieb's was for his entire career.

Insert your reply to me here.

 

[jalopy]

Trying a different one. IMO one pitcher that was overrated and one that is underrated.

Morris. 3.9 era. 3800+ innings. 105 era+

Stieb. 3.44 era. 2800+ innings. 122 era+

I hate trying to do these comparisons when I have an obvious bias towards one of the players (raised in Detroit) and a bias against his rival. That said I am going to try to justify my Morris vote. Attitude is the biggest reason. Morris was an old-style type player. He wanted to finish every game he started. More than wanted, insisted. In fact, I remember many tantrums on the mound when Sparky would yank him. I can't think of many pitchers I would rather take the ball in a Game 7. His postseason pitching has become legendary.

Just like I picked Clemente over Kaline because I liked his passion for the game, I am doing the same thing here. All the stats in the world aren't going to change my mind on this one.

By the way, I tried to see what their record was in head-to head games but couldn't figure out how to do it. Any help?

 

[DragonfromTO]

I hate trying to do these comparisons when I have an obvious bias towards one of the players (raised in Detroit) and a bias against his rival. That said I am going to try to justify my Morris vote. Attitude is the biggest reason. Morris was an old-style type player. He wanted to finish every game he started. More than wanted, insisted. In fact, I remember many tantrums on the mound when Sparky would yank him. I can't think of many pitchers I would rather take the ball in a Game 7. His postseason pitching has become legendary.

Just like I picked Clemente over Kaline because I liked his passion for the game, I am doing the same thing here. All the stats in the world aren't going to change my mind on this one.

By the way, I tried to see what their record was in head-to head games but couldn't figure out how to do it. Any help?

Not sure about head to head, but Morris was 14-12 with a 4.26 ERA against Toronto for his career, while Stieb was 12-9 with a 3.94 ERA against Detroit.

 

[broncosmitty]

So either way you look at it (best stretch of their careers, or overall career numbers), Morris wasn't as good as Stieb.

So Morris was better solely because he pitched longer? Morris has 1000 more innings than Pedro...was he better than Pedro simply because he pitched longer?

When you say wasn't as good, you mean ERA? Morris didn't just pitch longer, he pitched more. More innings, more Ks, more starts, more CGs, more Ws, more. Martinez is nowhere near this comparison. Pedro was top 5 in CYA 7 times, won three. (Steibs "best year" he still tied with Morris in CYA. JM was top 10 seven times, Steib 4.)Was absolutely dominant, Morris and Steib were not absolutely dominant. Neither have any business in his class. Innings can be trumped, never have said otherwise. Im not going to list a Niekro or a Sutton in my top 5 or 10 because of innings.

 

[jalopy]

Not sure about head to head, but Morris was 14-12 with a 4.26 ERA against Toronto for his career, while Stieb was 12-9 with a 3.94 ERA against Detroit.

Thanks, why do you think Stieb was under-rated? Do you think it was his demeanor or the fact that he played in Canada or something else?

 

[obxyankeefan]

Thanks, why do you think Stieb was under-rated? Do you think it was his demeanor or the fact that he played in Canada or something else?

He played for some bad Toronto teams.

Look at his HOF votes compared to Morris: Stieb got 1.4% and bounced his first year

When talking about good to great players from the 80s (non HOF) how soon does Morris's name come up and how ling until Stieb's does.



Any suggestions for a HOF pitcher to compare to Mickey Lolich?

 

[broncosmitty]

The Blue Jays were over .500 each of his last ten years in Toronto. (11 if you count '98) Winning the East 3 out his last 4. (And The WS in 92, which he did not participate in.). The White Sox won the West in 93. (He did not participate in the ALCS) 4 out 5 division winners. 12 straight winning teams. Which should bring us to the Post-Season portion that Nos' referenced earlier.

 

[steveringo]

From 1980-1991, Steib put up an ERA+ of 128.

Jack Morris had one season higher than 128.

They both averaged 35 Games per 162. Morris just lasted a few more seasons...


Are we voting for the better pticher, or the one with a longer career?

 

[steveringo]

Even though I voted for Stieb, I figured there would be more support for Morris then this.

I'm the opposite.... I am surprised there is so much Morris support...

 

[StanMarsh51]

When you say wasn't as good, you mean ERA? Morris didn't just pitch longer, he pitched more. More innings, more Ks, more starts, more CGs, more Ws, more. Martinez is nowhere near this comparison. Pedro was top 5 in CYA 7 times, won three. (Steibs "best year" he still tied with Morris in CYA. JM was top 10 seven times, Steib 4.)Was absolutely dominant, Morris and Steib were not absolutely dominant. Neither have any business in his class. Innings can be trumped, never have said otherwise. Im not going to list a Niekro or a Sutton in my top 5 or 10 because of innings.

Which was an absolute joke, considering Stieb in 1984 led the AL in innings, ERA+, H/9 while being 3rd in WHIP and 2nd in K's, yet he got only 1 Cy vote....and it's not as if he had a bad record that year, as he went 16-8.

If we're to compare their 'dominance' during their primes/peaks, consider that Stieb had a 4 year stretch where he averaged a 2.91 ERA (154 ERA+), 1.15 WHIP, 13 complete games and 275 innings per season. Morris by comparison didn't have a single season that was as good as Stieb's 4 year run.

 

[DragonfromTO]

The Blue Jays were over .500 each of his last ten years in Toronto. (11 if you count '98) Winning the East 3 out his last 4. (And The WS in 92, which he did not participate in.). The White Sox won the West in 93. (He did not participate in the ALCS) 4 out 5 division winners. 12 straight winning teams. Which should bring us to the Post-Season portion that Nos' referenced earlier.

The problem is that Stieb's very best seasons came while they were absolutely dreadful.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I'm the opposite.... I am surprised there is so much Morris support...

Morris seems to have a myth about him. The postseason greatness, because people remember game 7 from 1991 and not how bad he was in most other postseason starts. My memories of him are how he seemed to be able to turn it on when a game got tight. He is beloved in Detroit. He had the most wins in the eighties, I know but there are people that still go bye that.

 

[gunnarthor]

Personally, I think the HOF talk has led some to underrate Morris and overrate Stieb. Stieb had a nice 4 year run, no question, but Morris still had more career WAR, 52-46. (And, for fun, Brad Radke has 45) Morris' durability pushes him over the top.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Personally, I think the HOF talk has led some to underrate Morris and overrate Stieb. Stieb had a nice 4 year run, no question, but Morris still had more career WAR, 52-46. (And, for fun, Brad Radke has 45) Morris' durability pushes him over the top.

Depends on which version you look at. Bbref has Stieb with 57.0 and Morris with 43.8.

 

[gunnarthor]

Depends on which version you look at. Bbref has Stieb with 57.0 and Morris with 43.8.

Right but I suspect the people that down play Morris' career don't use fWAR (or know that he led the league in WAR once and it was even during Steib's 4 year run).

Questions comparing two players are always tricky. At the end of the day, Morris was a lot more durable and was able to do something that Stieb simply couldn't do - continue pitching at an effective level. And Steib had a nice peak but he had 14 other seasons, too. Both were great pitchers - both were literally among the top 2% of all pitchers in the history of the game. But I think Morris was slightly better player when all things were considered and I'm positive he had the better career, which had many highlights - including several big WS moments, a no-hitter and several other accomplishments.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Personally, I think the HOF talk has led some to underrate Morris and overrate Stieb. Stieb had a nice 4 year run, no question, but Morris still had more career WAR, 52-46. (And, for fun, Brad Radke has 45) Morris' durability pushes him over the top.

IF you want to talk WAR for careers talk JAWS it is better... Stieb has a higher JAWS...

The reason JAWS is better btw is because it includes the player at his peak... it is the combination of regular WAR and WAR7 which is the WAR for the player during his best 7 seasons(not neccessarily in order). This is very important for career... and for that reason i disagree with everything you just wrote...


As i mentioned earlier in this thread Stieb ranks 61st in WAR7 while morris ranks 182...

that is a huge difference...

 

[broncosmitty]

The problem is that Stieb's very best seasons came while they were absolutely dreadful.

That simply isn't true at all. The only high end season of Steibs career which his team was sub .500 was 1982. The only other seasons he played on a losing team were 81, 80 and 79. His first three seasons.