Damn Eagles Destroying Steelers

[Darrell Green Fan]

Unless I misses something Rock is not a Pats fan, but an Eagles fan. And thus would have a vested interest in thinking trading multiple picks for a QB was a good idea. I haeve shown you many examples of where chasing the franchise QB has left a team decimated in other areas. If you cant see that as a Redskins fan how the RG3 trade damaged this team, the Campbell deal damaged this team... IM not sure you are even fixable. Trading UP for a player.. especially a QB, does more harm than good in most cases. History bears this out.

I corrected my mistake and LOL that any of us have any influence over what our teams do.

Now about my post above....

 

[Breed]

IWe used 3 firsts and a 2nd on the best performance by a rookie QB in the last 20 years.... and guess what.. we still need a QB according to you and a few others.

If some people are to be believed. By some metrics, it was the best season ever by a rookie QB in NFL history. Unfortunately what we saw that rookie season was also the best that it would get. As none of us realized till too late what a fuckin hard-head the rookie was. As well as how much hubris he would come to possess.

 

[Sharkinva]

Now you are just being stubborn. Exactly how many more times do you need me to admit that first round QBs is a gamble and most don't pan out. And for the record NOBODY considered any of these guys can't miss.

However I posted the stats. I pointed out that the 3rd round QB list over 20 years resulted in nothing other than Russell. The same article showed how much better QBs in the first half of the first round have been. You once again ignore the facts when they don't fit your argument yet you post this. Come on man....

I can freely admit first round QBs have a better success rate than 2nd 3rd and 4th round QBs. Now can you admit it is dumb as fuck to trade multiple picks for a QB because more often than not it fails and fucks the team over for years in the process??

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I thought the whole point was to put together the best TEAM. IF you draft an all world WR, but your team still sucks.. .what exactly did you gain??

We used 3 firsts and a 2nd on the best performance by a rookie QB in the last 20 years.... and guess what.. we still need a QB according to you and a few others.

I think Cousins MAY be the guy for you. He played really well last year and started off looking like his up and down turnover prone self but it's still early...

Exactly dead on there about building a team and it is so hard to build any kind of consistent team when the guy who's by far the most responsible for that success is changing and playing poorly year to year.

Look at the team records the past 4 years (since 2012... Who's the best team that hasn't had a franchise QB in that time? Maybe Houston, 1 game over .500 ball (Due to Schaub's last good year)? Maybe Miami or Buffalo both 7 games below .500? And what do we have? 9 coaches and a playoff appearance? How do you build a good TEAM when you are just ripping through coaches, and year to year changing things up before the rookies drafted for one scheme even get to mature in that?

How do you get a chance to build a team when Johnson isn't working for Turner so he's out then Banks isn't working for Schott, then Ramsey isn't working for Spurrier, then Brunell isn't working for Gibbs, then Soup isn't working for Zorn, then McNabb/Grossman/Griffin isn't working for Shanny... So now Shanahan's trying to use an Hback as best he can and Gruden's got a zone blocking built line outside of Trent, and they are going to a different D and spend a pile on free agents to try and fit in now since what they are building isn't made for that scheme and you have 3 guys you drafted starting on your D and are tight on cap and then your crappy QB really struggles and you are rebuilding again....

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I can freely admit first round QBs have a better success rate than 2nd 3rd and 4th round QBs. Now can you admit it is dumb as fuck to trade multiple picks for a QB because more often than not it fails and fucks the team over for years in the process??

As I said I'm not crazy about the idea, I was laughing at the Eagles last spring. But given who is laughing now no I can't automatically dismiss the idea. Exactly how many winning seasons did the Rams parlay out of the Griff trade again? Oh yeah, zero.

Of course it depends on the number of picks traded and the player. If the alternative is to settle for a middle of the road QB and hope the rest of the roster is good enough to overcome him, which rarely happens, then fuck that I'll roll the dice.

Gotta run brother, talk to you tomorrow.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I can freely admit first round QBs have a better success rate than 2nd 3rd and 4th round QBs. Now can you admit it is dumb as fuck to trade multiple picks for a QB because more often than not it fails and fucks the team over for years in the process??

No... Because even though it failed in Washington, how much better off are the Rams? Washington got a playoff run out of it and had it not been for injuries and his regression may have had more. Rams are just begging to fire the coach that made that move.

The team is most likely fucked no matter what if they don't solve the QB position. Might as well take your biggest swing at that. Like I said, finding the guy in the 2-5 rounds is a 1 in 50+ shot. And the guys that 10 years ago were going in the mid 1st are now going in the top 5 picks. Instead you are reaching for Manziel and Tebow later in the first.

If you think he's a franchise QB, fuck yes go for it. Not like Washington was tearing it up with spending 15 mil on McNabb and Grossman out there instead.

 

[Sharkinva]

No... Because even though it failed in Washington, how much better off are the Rams? Washington got a playoff run out of it and had it not been for injuries and his regression may have had more. Rams are just begging to fire the coach that made that move.

The team is most likely fucked no matter what if they don't solve the QB position. Might as well take your biggest swing at that. Like I said, finding the guy in the 2-5 rounds is a 1 in 50+ shot. And the guys that 10 years ago were going in the mid 1st are now going in the top 5 picks. Instead you are reaching for Manziel and Tebow later in the first.

If you think he's a franchise QB, fuck yes go for it. Not like Washington was tearing it up with spending 15 mil on McNabb and Grossman out there instead.

Again Im not disagreeing that if we finish badly enough to be in a position to draft a QB.. go for it. But I have seen enough teams swing and miss that 3-0 from the Eagles is not enough to make me think we should do something that fails more often than not.

History

Falcons traded up for Vick
Chargers traded up for Leaf
Redskins took it in the ass for RG3


So yea... Im not a fan of the trade up for a QB maneuver.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I actually haven't used Wentz once in my reasoning.

I think too many teams do get worried like Cleveland did when they passed on Big Ben because they had just failed on Couch so badly.

And I've said it does fail, but if there are what you think is a franchise QB or 2 out there and you need to move up to get that franchise QB rather than settle on the next tier that will be available for you, I am fine if you go ahead for that.

Making a move to trade up for a QB isn't a bad thing. Had Washington targeted the right QB a decade ago, and given up a tad more, they may have Aaron Rodgers instead of Jason Campbell. I can't say that's a move you should never make.

 

[Sharkinva]

I actually haven't used Wentz once in my reasoning.

I think too many teams do get worried like Cleveland did when they passed on Big Ben because they had just failed on Couch so badly.

And I've said it does fail, but if there are what you think is a franchise QB or 2 out there and you need to move up to get that franchise QB rather than settle on the next tier that will be available for you, I am fine if you go ahead for that.

Making a move to trade up for a QB isn't a bad thing. Had Washington targeted the right QB a decade ago, and given up a tad more, they may have Aaron Rodgers instead of Jason Campbell. I can't say that's a move you should never make.

Again bro. Context. Some around here have used Wentz as to why we should make another trade.

Just saying.

 

[Breed]

Again bro. Context. Some around here have used Wentz as to why we should make another trade.

Just saying.

When you say "around here" are you speaking on Redskin fans on the hoop who frequent this board?
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Cool website listing the overall W/L record, regular season only W/L record, and postseason only W/L record of every active QB in the NFL that's started 1 game.

Quarterback Win/Loss Records | The Football Database

Far as wins go. Brady is just smokin folks be it overall, regular, and postseason.

Far as winning # goes. Looks like Brady, Wilson, and Big Ben could be a big three.

The most intriguing player though, at least to me, is Drew Brees. Especially when you consider the shitty defenses the Saints have had during Brees' Saints tenure. And in a year when the Saints had a ball-hawking defense. They won the Super Bowl and were pretty much the NFL's best team from start to finish.

Flacco, Wilson, and especially Eli get some serious shine for the postseason,

Just from a W/L perspective though. Its hard to make an argument other than when it comes to QBs. Its Brady's world and everyone else is just a squirrel trying to get nut. With Eli being Brady's huckleberry for sure.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

When you say "around here" are you speaking on Redskin fans on the hoop who frequent this board?.

Yeah he is talking about me and why Shark would chose Wentz, who to date is a perfect example to support my argument, is perplexing. Anyone with a TV, internet access and basic football knowledge can see that right now that trade is a slam dunk win for the Eagles. Of course we can't predict the future so the first 3 games, as well as the scout projections, is all the information we have to date and it clearly shows the Eagles made the right move.

 

[j_y19]

Yeah the Eagles are for real and the reason is not just the defense, they had many of the same players last year but in a different scheme. No the biggest reason is the play of the QB which is example number 1,345,974 on how important a good QB is to a team.

Apparently not to the Patriots. Bellicheck can plug in anyone and still win.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

No as pointed out earlier in the thread BB is 18-18 in New England without Tom Brady and I don't believe they have won a playoff game. And of course the same genius Bill Bellichick was a losing coach in Cleveland where he had no QB.

 

[j_y19]

No as pointed out earlier in the thread BB is 18-18 in New England without Tom Brady and I don't believe they have won a playoff game. And of course the same genius Bill Bellichick was a losing coach in Cleveland where he had no QB.

Just going by recent history. Do you really think the two Patriots backups this year are franchise material? Or did the Patriots win all 3 because the rest of the team is so strong that these guys weren't asked to carry the full load?

 

[j_y19]

I'm not disagreeing that you need a good QB, just that if you have a strong supporting cast, you can win and compete with a "good" QB. Mainly one that doesn't make boneheaded mistakes and the defense isn't giving up 30 pts a game. if you put Wilson on the redskins team this year, I'd bet our record might be the same.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Just going by recent history. Do you really think the two Patriots backups this year are franchise material? Or did the Patriots win all 3 because the rest of the team is so strong that these guys weren't asked to carry the full load?

Of course not, but let's not get carried away. Just as we can't use 3 games to totally judge Wentz let's not use these 3 games to draw any conclusions that the Pats would be great without Brady. I'd rather look at BB's entire record without Brady rather than the last 3 games.

Again look at the facts provided by the Eagles poster (with my comments in parens) when Shark claimed the good QBs won because they had good teams around them too.


Indy didn't look good pre-Peyton, and certainly didn't look good when he was out with his neck injury. (They were the worst team in the league, drafted Luck, and instantly a playoff team)

Belichick is 18-18 now in NE (and 36-44 in Cleveland) without Brady

Pittsburgh was 6-10 before Ben took over.

GB was horrible for decades before Favre/Rodgers. They had 2 wins in 7 games the one time Rodgers missed meaningful time, they weren't a powerhouse without those two QB's at any point.

Denver had 5 straight non-winning years before Peyton shows up and poof, 12-13 wins every single year.

Philly won 6, 3, and 5 games before McNabb took over as the season starter. 11 that first year with him full time.

Seattle went to SB's and won when Hasselbeck/Wilson were playing well. 6 win year before Hasselbeck, and 4 straight losing years in the in-between years between those two QB's playing at a high level.

NO was a 3 win team with two winning years in 12 years before Brees.

Giants won 10 games over 2 years in the two seasons before Eli took over as their full time season starter.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I'm not disagreeing that you need a good QB, just that if you have a strong supporting cast, you can win and compete with a "good" QB. Mainly one that doesn't make boneheaded mistakes and the defense isn't giving up 30 pts a game. if you put Wilson on the redskins team this year, I'd bet our record might be the same.

I think that we all realize that this team still needs to add more talent. This team is still in rebuilding mode & I am sure that they will address a lot of this over the next few years.

I agree that they don't need a great QB. However - Cousins has a ways to go to even be considered good long term. He needs to get to the pt where everyone trusts him & pretty much knows what to expect from him week-in / week-out. That will involve cutting down on the mistakes, being more accurate & not forcing things.

I think that he showed some progress on Sun but still had some issues (the end of the 1st half was ridiculous). I think some of this may be due to him pressing due to his contract situation. He should get better as the year progresses. If he can put together an extended streak of decent games (regardless of record or the play of other parts of the team) then I know that I will feel confident & most likely Kirk will secure his long term future with the team.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yeah and just to clarify my position again I never said you have to have a great QB, there are probably 10-12 QBs in the league at any given time who I feel are QBs who are a reason their team wins consistantly. The next group are guys you can get by with but they need a lot of help and will ultimately hold you back, the last group stinks.

Right now in his 5th year with the perfect developmental situation of time to learn mixed in with a few opportunities to learn in real games Kirk falls into the second catagory. Hard to forecast that changing too much moving forward.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Yeah and just to clarify my position again I never said you have to have a great QB, there are probably 10-12 QBs in the league at any given time who I feel are QBs who are a reason their team wins consistantly. The next group are guys you can get by with but they need a lot of help and will ultimately hold you back, the last group stinks.

Right now in his 5th year with the perfect developmental situation of time to learn mixed in with a few opportunities to learn in real games Kirk falls into the second catagory. Hard to forecast that changing too much moving forward.

Yep. This is his time to prove himself. For anyone maintaining that it is perhaps not fair to Cousins because it is the fault of the defense, running game, coaching, etc - well too bad. Nobody said that this is supposed to be fair - that is why the QBs get the big bucks. To also suggest that the Redskins have one of the more critical fan bases IMO is also off base.

The Redskins fans have had to put up w/ a lot more shit than most fans and we are no more critical than fans of other teams that have struggled for the most part (easy to be say a Pats fan when your team always wins). Fans of most NFL teams also have a tendency to put blame on the QB or coach first - rt or wrong that is the way that it is at the current time. These guys will always be the 1st to get credit or blame. If they don't like it then they are in the wrong profession.

HTTR

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yep. This is his time to prove himself. For anyone maintaining that it is perhaps not fair to Cousins because it is the fault of the defense, running game, coaching, etc - well too bad. Nobody said that this is supposed to be fair - that is why the QBs get the big bucks. To also suggest that the Redskins have one of the more critical fan bases IMO is also off base.


HTTR

Very well said, sure wish I had worded it this way in a week of debating. As I keep saying good QB play can overcome a lot of other problems a team has and is vital to the success of a team. If yours isn't a guy who can do that, and needs help to be successful, then you are handicapped and playing at a disadvantage every time you play a team that has that guy.

I have no idea why I need to continue to prove this point to some here, it should be obvious.