Core 4

[Sackataters]

Ok, I see that when Jefferson is off the court, the Jazz play 9.0 points better on defense. That's HUGE.

Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.

109.3 105.6 +3.7

Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.

111.5 102.5 +9.0


So he's only +3.7 on offense, and -9.0 on defense, for a net of -5.4.

His offense doesn't make up for his defense.

I now don't think the Jazz should resign either Millsap nor Jefferson. Both will get paid more than they currently do, and aren't worth it.



Since they have bigs on rookie contracts in Kanter and Favors, they should build around them. They're cheap and resonably productive.



I do think their offense in the short term would fall off. They don't have anyone who can create his own shot outside of Hayward. That's where I see Jefferson providing some value.



But long term, they need to see if Kanter and Favors can get better on offense. If not, they might still be worth building around, as rebounding and defensive players. And they might need to get more offense out of the SG, bench, and PG, to compensate.

So they should take the next 1-2 years, and see how good Kanter and Favors can get on offense. Then if they've peaked, yet haven't become go-to guys on offense, keep them anyways because I think their rebounding and defense is valuable. It's not all about scoring. I know Boozer and Harpring and Jefferson could score, and there's a chance that these guys (Kanter and Favors) won't ever be as good as they were on offense, but that they'll be better on defense, especially as a duo. This upcoming team might have to have offense not from the frontcourt, but from other positions. Not all good teams get scoring from the frontcourt, and what's the point of getting scoring from the frontcourt if they give up a lot on defense too (like those Okur-Boozer frontcourt teams used to do)? Teams don't need as much frontcourt scoring if they can hold other teams to less scoring themselves.


Hayward has the potential to be like Paul George or Harden IMO. See how good he can be. See how much Favors and Kanter con contribute on offense. See how to get more scoring from the SG, then the bench (maybe that's where someone like Maynor or Burks comes in). Keep Carroll as a valuable bench scorer. Then there's a chance the PG will have to score a little more, because if Kanter and Favors can't do much more, then you can't force it. There's a chance you won't be able to keep giving them the ball and have them turn into scorers, it just might not happen. They'll turn it over. They'll get fouled and miss FTs. They'll miss shots. They'll commit offensive fouls. They won't be able to finish shots without getting foul calls. There's a chance they may be limited by these latter factors. So the offense will have to come from other areas, if they themselves can create some shots. If not, then the GM has to find ways to keep improving the team, and let players do what they're capable of doing, not more.

I think I can live with all this. Well need a good 3rd big, not named Evans, to mix into the fray since Favors fouls so much. If we go young, it's probably good to have Mo come back next year to captain the ship. I don't see much else as far as PGs out there with experience. Jamal had a good run, but is looking older. Earl is too long in the tooth and can't even make layups any more.

If you have Kanter, Favors. Mo and Hayward tend to take traffic into the lane..who spaces the floor? Resign Foye? Think Marvin will be more productive in the vaccuum left with Al and Paul's departure?

 

[nuraman00]

I think I can live with all this. Well need a good 3rd big, not named Evans, to mix into the fray since Favors fouls so much. If we go young, it's probably good to have Mo come back next year to captain the ship. I don't see much else as far as PGs out there with experience. Jamal had a good run, but is looking older. Earl is too long in the tooth and can't even make layups any more.

If you have Kanter, Favors. Mo and Hayward tend to take traffic into the lane..who spaces the floor? Resign Foye? Think Marvin will be more productive in the vaccuum left with Al and Paul's departure?

Do you think Kanter, Favors, and Carroll could be those 3 bigs? Can't Carroll be that 3rd big?

BTW, I still try to get Josh Smith 1st, before committing to a Kanter-Favors starting frontcourt.

As far as helping space the floor:

Foye
Redick
Morrow
Bellineli
Willie Green (shooting 59% on corner 3's)
Babbit
Barnes
McGuire (can't shoot, but good defensive player)

Some of those may or may not be better than Marvin, but most of those might be better fits, because they have better range.

Overall though, 5th starters just don't do much. It's better to be a bench player than the 5th starter on offense. 5th starters are best as defensive players (which Marvin isn't). So I wouldn't count on a 5th starter being an offensive player, but I could get one that's better on defense and rebounding than Marvin.

 

[nuraman00]

Just going back to Jefferson quickly. I like his offense and ability to create shots. But it's just when I look at every lineup combination with Jefferson, and they get outscored, while others get outscored less, then I think his lack of defense isn't a good fit.

Perhaps if they started Favors with Jefferson, it would be a better compliment. But the coaching or management don't look like they want to try that.

So I now think it's best to move on, just because it's too hard to build around him, partially due to the way they don't want to put a better defensive player next to him. It's better not to have a focal point on offense, with the way they used him, but rather try to have a more equal-opportunity offense that's not as predictable. Until someone emerges as a go-to scorer.

Which is why I think it's better for development going forward, to see how far Hayward-Kanter-Favors can go offensively, and to keep adding more pieces if or as they show limitations. The days of running the offense through a big like Harpring or Boozer are over, because these guys just aren't like them. But they may be good defensively and on the boards. This may transform into one of those tough physical teams that no one wants to face, because they beat you up on defense.

 

[Sackataters]

You think Carroll could hold his own on defense on a 4 or 5? I'm not sure.

Why hasn't Corbin tried benching Marvin and starting Demarre yet this year?

Corbin has done a decent job of getting guys on the court. But, has not been creative or imaginative in the combinations. The only tough personnel decision he has made was benching Hayward. Al the other ones have been only due to injury. I really wanted to see that Favors/Jefferson lineup this year...just to see.

Even if Al goes, the transition time for Enes and Derrick was needed. They got to watch and spar under Al's tutorial. I don't think either would have been too successful out of the gate. In other words, I don't subscribe to the idea that Al or Ty held them back. I don't think they were ready. I'm still not sure if they are. But, am more willing to give it a try. Keep in mind though, this was the Bobcats. We couldn't score at all for the first 10 minutes of the game. So, I've just had a tough time trying to figure out where the offense was going to come from.

Kanter looked like Malone last night, so that was pretty fun.

And, I'm ready to watch tough, physical team play again (if not obvious by my choice of adjectives the other night...soft, p!$$ies).

 

[nuraman00]

You think Carroll could hold his own on defense on a 4 or 5? I'm not sure.

Why hasn't Corbin tried benching Marvin and starting Demarre yet this year?

Corbin has done a decent job of getting guys on the court. But, has not been creative or imaginative in the combinations. The only tough personnel decision he has made was benching Hayward. Al the other ones have been only due to injury. I really wanted to see that Favors/Jefferson lineup this year...just to see.

Even if Al goes, the transition time for Enes and Derrick was needed. They got to watch and spar under Al's tutorial. I don't think either would have been too successful out of the gate. In other words, I don't subscribe to the idea that Al or Ty held them back. I don't think they were ready. I'm still not sure if they are. But, am more willing to give it a try. Keep in mind though, this was the Bobcats. We couldn't score at all for the first 10 minutes of the game. So, I've just had a tough time trying to figure out where the offense was going to come from.

Kanter looked like Malone last night, so that was pretty fun.

And, I'm ready to watch tough, physical team play again (if not obvious by my choice of adjectives the other night...soft, p!$$ies).

Corbin must see something in Marvin, that's the only thing I can think of.

I wouldn't mind it if Marvin started but played less minutes than Carroll, but Marvin is still playing more. They should swap minutes.

I agree, Al didn't hold them back. Kanter and Favors aren't even ready to be starters now. They'll probably foul too much.

It's just if you look at it from a GM point of view, Jefferson or Millsap is going to cost a lot. They should command more than they're each making now.

And Kanter and Favors are on rookie contracts.

So what a smart GM would do is try to get as many minutes to Kanter and Favors as possible, so he can have a better evaluation of them. Especially since they're cheap right now, compared to when they hit restricted free agency.

I'm pretty sure Favors wouldn't sign an extension this year anyways, because he probably feels that if next year is good, he can get more. And he's right to think that.

I also wanted to see Favors + Jefferson together. I think it could have been like Reggie Evans + Brook Lopez, where one guy is good at scoring, and the other guy at defense and rebounding. But for whatever reason, Corbin never tried that.

As to where the offense is going to come from, it's going to have to come more in transition. Get more rebounds, get more stops, and get some hoops in transition. The halfcourt offense will be problematic, but it's not like it was that great anyways, it relied too much on Jefferson. They're going to have to learn how to make some moves in the halfcourt, against a set defense, anyways.

Denver doesn't have a great halfcourt offense, but they have a bunch of bigs that can score in transition. That's what I think Carroll + Favors + Kanter could do.


I don't think Carroll can become a good defender, he's a little small. He's also a poor rebounder. But, at a certain point, rebounding isn't needed as much, because Favors and Kanter are great rebounders. Unfortunately, the PGs don't look like they can rebound (neither Watson, Tinsley, or Mo).

And Hayward isn't a good rebounder either.

But all things considered, I think Carroll is still a good bench player. He doesn't have to be a complete player, he just has to do 1-3 things well, which he does. Then it's up to the GM to get other reserves fill in the other weaknesses.

I just think Carroll can become a good 3rd big, the same way someone like Brandon Bass or Big Baby Davis have done in their careers. He can find a role and do something positive. Those other guys were flawed too, but did some things well enough to become keepers on whatever teams they played on.

 

[nuraman00]

I kind of wish we would have traded for Maynor, by the way.

Maynor had 12 assists in 31 minutes last night.

(I didn't watch the game, was thinking about it, but wanted to take a break from TV).

 

[nuraman00]

drake (toronto)


Am I the only person who thinks Josh Smith is over rated and does not deserve a max contract@
mike wilbon
(2:52 PM)


There's at least two of us!

 

[Sackataters]

Now that all the dust is settling, there is at least more clarity. I grew quite fond of Al and Paul over the years. Al has a likable personality. I wanted him to achieve greatness with the Jazz...prove all his detractors wrong. He became a better passer with the Jazz, but something is still wrong. As great as he is on offense, there was some article I read that said our starters..in various combinations score less than other team regularly. So, they are no juggernaut. Neither Al nor Paul are good on defense. Paul leads the team in steals, but I'm not really impressed by that. He got his job by being a hustler. He doesn't do that anymore. Maybe that is because Al steals all the thunder.

So, getting back to the point, I feel less sentimental about the team with the way the season is concluding. Given the way the wheels have fallen off, I don't see Al or Paul being sentimental in free agency either. I don't see any discounts being offered, it will be business. So, in a way, this collapse is okay. I don't want to pay much for either of them to stay.

With 12 games to go, I just wish that Corbin would shake up the starters in the post. We never really got to see if Favors could balance out Al or Paul. Can Favors be viable with either of them as a starter? Could he offset the defensive deficiency? He certainly was briefly in the last game with the Spurs. Corbin took him out and the Spurs took over with 8 to go in the 4th. I just don't understand why Tye is so rigid...live and die by Al/Paul philosophy. He has shown some flexibility with minutes according to production with all of the other positions.

As far as the core 4, still not sold. Gordon looks good playing alongside Burks, Marvin, and Kanter. Burks kind of needs Gordon in order to make it work. Favors has polished offensively, but still is not a prolific scorer and makes stupid fouls.

Kanter is kind of exciting. Im not sure what he would do as a starter. Do any of you have a take on him defensively? Would he get destroyed by other starters in the PF/C slot? He seems to foul a bit less than Favors. He's been playing against scrubs, so it is tough for me to assess.

 

[nuraman00]

Now that all the dust is settling, there is at least more clarity. I grew quite fond of Al and Paul over the years. Al has a likable personality. I wanted him to achieve greatness with the Jazz...prove all his detractors wrong. He became a better passer with the Jazz, but something is still wrong. As great as he is on offense, there was some article I read that said our starters..in various combinations score less than other team regularly. So, they are no juggernaut. Neither Al nor Paul are good on defense. Paul leads the team in steals, but I'm not really impressed by that. He got his job by being a hustler. He doesn't do that anymore. Maybe that is because Al steals all the thunder.

So, getting back to the point, I feel less sentimental about the team with the way the season is concluding. Given the way the wheels have fallen off, I don't see Al or Paul being sentimental in free agency either. I don't see any discounts being offered, it will be business. So, in a way, this collapse is okay. I don't want to pay much for either of them to stay.

With 12 games to go, I just wish that Corbin would shake up the starters in the post. We never really got to see if Favors could balance out Al or Paul. Can Favors be viable with either of them as a starter? Could he offset the defensive deficiency? He certainly was briefly in the last game with the Spurs. Corbin took him out and the Spurs took over with 8 to go in the 4th. I just don't understand why Tye is so rigid...live and die by Al/Paul philosophy. He has shown some flexibility with minutes according to production with all of the other positions.

As far as the core 4, still not sold. Gordon looks good playing alongside Burks, Marvin, and Kanter. Burks kind of needs Gordon in order to make it work. Favors has polished offensively, but still is not a prolific scorer and makes stupid fouls.

Kanter is kind of exciting. Im not sure what he would do as a starter. Do any of you have a take on him defensively? Would he get destroyed by other starters in the PF/C slot? He seems to foul a bit less than Favors. He's been playing against scrubs, so it is tough for me to assess.

I think Kanter is fine defensively. He would hold his own, and not get destroyed. He'd be better than Millsap or Jefferson. He could be pretty good too.

 

[MHSL82]

I just don't understand why Tye is so rigid...live and die by Al/Paul philosophy. He has shown some flexibility with minutes according to production with all of the other positions.

Four possibilities:

1. He believes they give us the best chance to win and until he doesn't think that, they will play (but he's not stubborn).
2. He just isn't a good coach and those who aren't lean on people they shouldn't.
3. He played one of both of their positions and so personally he a belief about them or their position for stability, etc. Biased, etc.
4. He knows something we don't know or blackmail.

 

[MHSL82]

Now that all the dust is settling, there is at least more clarity. I grew quite fond of Alex Smith over the years. Alex has a likable personality. I wanted him to achieve greatness, win a ring with the 49ers... prove all his detractors wrong. He became a better passer with Harbaugh, but something is still missing. As great as he is at taking care of the ball, there was some article I read that said our offense ..in various areas grade lower than other teams regularly. So, underSmith, we were no juggernaut.

This is what I heard a lot when Kaepernick replaced Alex Smith. I wouldn't have thought of Smith here, except for your reference to like able personality and wanted to prove detractors wrong. I then swathe rest fit what I heard. You only know me through here, I'm really not that obsessed with Alex; I'm only naming one kid, not two, after him. Funny thing is, my wife loves that name and since I got to choose my daughter's name, she gets to choose our second kid's name. So maybe. But it won't be my doing.

 

[Sackataters]

People can say what they like about holding Favors back, but I think the Jazz have coddled him like a little bird.

How good can Hayward be? A Clyde Drexler? Pippen? He looks damn good to me in the last 2 months. His perimeter shooting is dialed in. He plays D. He has some nifty moves. Ball handler.

 

[nuraman00]

People can say what they like about holding Favors back, but I think the Jazz have coddled him like a little bird.

How good can Hayward be? A Clyde Drexler? Pippen? He looks damn good to me in the last 2 months. His perimeter shooting is dialed in. He plays D. He has some nifty moves. Ball handler.

Don't forget about my positive assessments of the Jazz. I've said a few times that Gordan Hayward has "nice moves".

He has a lot of the same skills.

It looks like we agree about Hayward's moves.

 

[nuraman00]

Hayward won't rebound like Pippen or Drexler, he might be closer to Vince Carter.

 

[Sackataters]

Now that Big Turkey got a broken drumstick fighting over the wishbone, Favors will be thanks giving for more minutes.

 

[MHSL82]

Now that Big Turkey got a broken drumstick fighting over the wishbone, Favors will be thanks giving for more minutes.

Sorry, Nuraman has mandated that everyone must refrain from calling him or anyone else the Big Turkey. Actually, just him and he was referring to the announcers, but I don't think he'd like anyone else to be called that and anyone for that matter saying it. I suppose he will forgive you because you worked it into your overall theme with the Thanksgiving and broken drumstick reference. But, be warned, that if you plan on addressing someone as the Big Turkey, you must be clever or bear Nuraman's wrath.

 

[Sackataters]

Bleacher report did an article on 2013 free agents. They projected UT losing Paul to Dallas and Al to Phillie and picking up Calderon and OJ Mayo. How do you think that would impact the team? I know it's all hyperbole and speculation, but just wondering.

 

[nuraman00]

Bleacher report did an article on 2013 free agents. They projected UT losing Paul to Dallas and Al to Phillie and picking up Calderon and OJ Mayo. How do you think that would impact the team? I know it's all hyperbole and speculation, but just wondering.

If the contracts are decent, I like it.

 

[nuraman00]

I think you're right about Maynor. He would be a good 8th man, next to 7th man Mo Williams.

However, given that he's a RFA, what's the point of having a rental? Someone would probably make him an offer that the Jazz wouldn't be able to match, because they're trying to get starting caliber players. It wouldn't make sense to tie up their cap space with Maynor's cap hold.

At least now, if they can get someone good first, then can then make an offer for Maynor with the left over cap space. They can go get him this offseason, on their terms, not on someone else's forcing them to match or decline terms.

 

[Sackataters]

Sorry, Nuraman has mandated that everyone must refrain from calling him or anyone else the Big Turkey. Actually, just him and he was referring to the announcers, but I don't think he'd like anyone else to be called that and anyone for that matter saying it. I suppose he will forgive you because you worked it into your overall theme with the Thanksgiving and broken drumstick reference. But, be warned, that if you plan on addressing someone as the Big Turkey, you must be clever or bear Nuraman's wrath.

My pet peeve is Harpring calling Favors 'a man amongst boys'...is that like a Sandusky or what the hell!