Coffee talk

[sabresfaninthesouth]

The thing is, Hillary is an awful candidate compared to Obama and Kerry. Much of where she's gotten in her public life, fair or not, is the result of nepotism - she might have been a public servant had she married a line cook or an insurance executive but she would not have spent the last 10 years of her life as a serious contender for the land's highest office.

I don't disagree with that statement, but the same thing can be said of lots of people who have become or had a legitimate chance of becoming president.

So why do people discount her for it when they didn't discount GW or Jeb for the same reason? Not to pick on them, they're just the two best recent examples.

And for the record, I agree that she's an awful candidate. The Repubs it seems picked pretty much the only person off that crowded debate stage that couldn't beat her.

 

[forty_three]

Speaking of inherently distrusting women...

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

But I'm not electing a sister or a cousin. I am electing a president. And in the past 8 years, my salary has gone up 30%, my job security has gone up 150%, crime has come down, more kids have health care, renewable clean energy is taking hold and people I know are able to love and marry whoever the fuck they want. I'm okay with four to eight more years if the last 8 have been this good. I think this place is pretty great.

Because my last post wasn't long enough...

But here's where I think Democrats are kinda getting their wires crossed - for many, salaries do rise and standards of living are maintained but we have an entire generation of people, of voters, who entered the workforce uneducated but able to achieve a middle-class way of life and many (if not most) of those people now make up the lower-income white vote that created the Trump monster and the side-effects associated with him.

It's one thing, and a noble effort, to vow to protect minorities and immigrants and those seeking equality in rights and wages and everything else but very little of how the past 8 years has gone for you has rung true for the group I just described. And we can call them whatever we want - stupid, white trash, etc. - but these are the people who by-and-large made up the union rolls and were true-blue Democrats for generations. We can blame them all we want but when nothing has worked to turn things around in these regions of the country for nearly 40 years I don't know how people can not expect them to gravitate to someone like Trump who comes equipped with 1) Ready-made scapegoats and 2) Quick "solutions" (that will never happen nor work but) that nobody else seems to offer.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't disagree with that statement, but the same thing can be said of lots of people who have become or had a legitimate chance of becoming president.

So why do people discount her for it when they didn't discount GW or Jeb for the same reason? Not to pick on them, they're just the two best recent examples.

And for the record, I agree that she's an awful candidate. The Repubs it seems picked pretty much the only person off that crowded debate stage that couldn't beat her.

GW didn't seem to get a lot of stick for it but GW was also ran a very, very different campaign than his father did. Jeb got painted with that brush, though - even by his own mother!

But you're right, nowhere nearly as bad as Hillary got beaten down for it, and she's very lucky the GOP decided they didn't want the WH this year.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I agree with your statement completely but the bolded part that can be said for almost all elected officials and most other folks in the country at that time. Heck Trump had the same sentiment at the time based off of emotion. I think thats the double standard that occurs (not saying you mean that just mentioning it as an example) that since it is a woman people think she is letting her emotions get in the way of her judgement but a man that is ok.

Like I said, it's hindsight. Shit, I wanted to nuke the entire Middle East after 9/11 and still kinda think we should've.

But the willingness of people who should've known better to buy into the crusade to invade isn't something I think should be forgotten, especially when these people are still running for office and being put in positions to make decisions of great importance.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

It's one thing, and a noble effort, to vow to protect minorities and immigrants and those seeking equality in rights and wages and everything else but very little of how the past 8 years has gone for you has rung true for the group I just described. And we can call them whatever we want - stupid, white trash, etc. - but these are the people who by-and-large made up the union rolls and were true-blue Democrats for generations. We can blame them all we want but when nothing has worked to turn things around in these regions of the country for nearly 40 years I don't know how people can not expect them to gravitate to someone like Trump who comes equipped with 1) Ready-made scapegoats and 2) Quick "solutions" (that will never happen nor work but) that nobody else seems to offer.

Not speaking as much to the political elements of it, but Mike Rowe pretty much hits that nail right on the head. The entire speech is great, but from about 4:15 on is the real heart of it.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Like I said, it's hindsight. Shit, I wanted to nuke the entire Middle East after 9/11 and still kinda think we should've.

But the willingness of people who should've known better to buy into the crusade to invade isn't something I think should be forgotten, especially when these people are still running for office and being put in positions to make decisions of great importance.

I struggle with this one for a few reasons. First off is exactly as you said that everyone was pissed and wanted blood right after, so a lot of bad decisions were made.

But there were a lot of people who voted in favor of it when the time came, not because they supported it, but because it was political suicide not to. These were the days of Freedom Fries and idiots pouring French wines down sewer drains because they didn't support another war. GW's approval ratings were some of the highest in history because people were rallying around the President during a terrible time.

The only emotion from most of the pols was career self-preservation.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Not speaking as much to the political elements of it, but Mike Rowe pretty much hits that nail right on the head. The entire speech is great, but from about 4:15 on is the real heart of it.

As someone who runs a union shop subtrade, I would kill for some half-decent labour I didn't have to sponsor to enter the country, as would my electrician friends, structural steel friends, etc.

It doesn't take long to get to the apprentice-stage of most trades. If programs were in place to train people in vulnerable work I think things would be very different.

 

[forty_three]

I struggle with this one for a few reasons. First off is exactly as you said that everyone was pissed and wanted blood right after, so a lot of bad decisions were made.

But there were a lot of people who voted in favor of it when the time came, not because they supported it, but because it was political suicide not to. These were the days of Freedom Fries and idiots pouring French wines down sewer drains because they didn't support another war. GW's approval ratings were some of the highest in history because people were rallying around the President during a terrible time.

The only emotion from most of the pols was career self-preservation.

Plus, it' can be hard to "know better" when the Secretary of State goes in front of the UN and lies through his teeth.

I mean, it should have been painfully obvious he was lying, but his clout combined with the fear of political suicide made a lot of people get it wrong.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

The only emotion from most of the pols was career self-preservation.

And this will always be true so it's not all that surprising.

But I do think his cleanliness in the matter helped Obama win the nom in 2008 and gave Bernie a shot this year.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Plus, it' can be hard to "know better" when the Secretary of State goes in front of the UN and lies through his teeth.

I mean, it should have been painfully obvious he was lying, but his clout combined with the fear of political suicide made a lot of people get it wrong.

The Iraq vote took place in October 2002; Powell didn't lie to the UN until February 2003.

 

[forty_three]

As someone who runs a union shop subtrade, I would kill for some half-decent labour I didn't have to sponsor to enter the country, as would my electrician friends, structural steel friends, etc.

It doesn't take long to get to the apprentice-stage of most trades. If programs were in place to train people in vulnerable work I think things would be very different.

I would love them to require job retraining to collect unemployment. If you are in an industry the world has moved on from, we will pay you to learn how to perform in one that it hasn't. We just make it too easy to not evolve.



Maybe then we could close the dangerous coal mines in West Virginia, open up some solar or wind farms and stop people dying of black lung at age 45. And, you know, fix one of the worst state economies in the US.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

The Iraq vote took place in October 2002; Powell didn't lie to the UN until February 2003.

Correct. Powell's speech - which for the record, I don't think he was lying, I think he was given lies to present by others in the administration - was definitely a big catalyst in changing American public perception, which had favored diplomacy over force overwhelmingly until that point.

 

[esls79]

I would love them to require job retraining to collect unemployment. If you are in an industry the world has moved on from, we will pay you to learn how to perform in one that it hasn't. We just make it too easy to not evolve.



Maybe then we could close the dangerous coal mines in West Virginia, open up some solar or wind farms and stop people dying of black lung at age 45. And, you know, fix one of the worst state economies in the US.

I for one am all for closing down the coal mines if it means opening up more banjo factories and spittoon shops.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Correct. Powell's speech - which for the record, I don't think he was lying, I think he was given lies to present by others in the administration - was definitely a big catalyst in changing American public perception, which had favored diplomacy over force overwhelmingly until that point.

I'm split on Colin. I do feel he was just being the team-player to a point, but he had State's own intelligence dept. review the speech prior to the presentation and they highlighted a shit-ton of problems with most of the content he would eventually go on to be ridiculed for.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I for one am all for closing down the coal mines if it means opening up more banjo factories and spittoon shops.

Abortions for some, handcrafted four-string instruments for others!

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

As someone who runs a union shop subtrade, I would kill for some half-decent labour I didn't have to sponsor to enter the country, as would my electrician friends, structural steel friends, etc.

It doesn't take long to get to the apprentice-stage of most trades. If programs were in place to train people in vulnerable work I think things would be very different.

The big problem is the way it's been presented for so long. People are taught from a young age that the only way to be successful in life is to go to college and get a high-paying office job.

Let's face it, not everyone is college and office job material and we just need to accept that. Everyone deserves to have the opportunity to obtain an education if that's what they want, but the trend in this country (maybe Canada too, I don't know) to paint people who go into skilled trades as somehow less than white-collar office workers is deplorable.

My dad worked his ass off in a skilled trade in some of the worst conditions imaginable for 30+ years in order to provide for his family. And I couldn't have more respect for what he did.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I'm split on Colin. I do feel he was just being the team-player to a point, but he had State's own intelligence dept. review the speech prior to the presentation and they highlighted a shit-ton of problems with most of the content he would eventually go on to be ridiculed for.

I may be giving him too much benefit of the doubt, but I think he was a genuinely good person who got in over his head and manipulated by less good people.

 

[thedddd]

Like I said, it's hindsight. Shit, I wanted to nuke the entire Middle East after 9/11 and still kinda think we should've.

But the willingness of people who should've known better to buy into the crusade to invade isn't something I think should be forgotten, especially when these people are still running for office and being put in positions to make decisions of great importance.

Yep:

Sen Hillary Clinton Post 911 Floor Speech | User Clip | C-SPAN.org
Rep Mike Pence 911 Terrorist Attacks | User Clip | C-SPAN.org

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

The big problem is the way it's been presented for so long. People are taught from a young age that the only way to be successful in life is to go to college and get a high-paying office job.

Let's face it, not everyone is college and office job material and we just need to accept that. Everyone deserves to have the opportunity to obtain an education if that's what they want, but the trend in this country (maybe Canada too, I don't know) to paint people who go into skilled trades as somehow less than white-collar office workers is deplorable.

My dad worked his ass off in a skilled trade in some of the worst conditions imaginable for 30+ years in order to provide for his family. And I couldn't have more respect for what he did.

I think Rowe said it best in the clip you posted, "vocational" training in school needs to be a more mainstream option as opposed to forcing kids into programs with which they will take absolutely zero applicable life skills from.