Carson Wentz:Locker Room Problem???

[SteelersPride]

The draft is about evaluating talent. These very high draft picks that PE1 talks about (12-15) are reserved for players with “special talents”. For example: a RB that can carry an offense, a WR with great hands and exceptional speed, a tackle with great size, strength and speed or a QB (even one that’s not “great”) because the position is so sought after.

The fact that ANY center was taken with ANY of those picks shows it’s an important position. A team only carries one or two at the most. That explains why so few are taken NOT because it’s “unimportant”.

He’s once again backed himself into a corner and he’s trying to wiggle his way out by changing the narrative but everyone is on to him.

well yeah, the only way out is to tell us we failed, or dont understand. I even made the thread for him about positional importance, only @Roy Munson said the draft determines importance, and i know roy was joking. Yet he determined the thread was a fail. literally zero people on the same page as him, but HE is right.

 

[dbldwn711]

well yeah, the only way out is to tell us we failed, or dont understand. I even made the thread for him about positional importance, only @Roy Munson said the draft determines importance, and i know roy was joking. Yet he determined the thread was a fail. literally zero people on the same page as him, but HE is right.

I saw @Roy Munson post on that thread. I know he was joking bc he didn’t say “BOOM” at the end!

 

[SteelersPride]

I saw @Roy Munson post on that thread. I know he was joking bc he didn’t say “BOOM” at the end!

arent you supposed to be in ATL

 

[dbldwn711]

arent you supposed to be in ATL

I am. I’m in my hotel room waiting for my buddies to get ready. We are heading downtown to go walk around the NFL stuff

 

[SteelersPride]

I am. I’m in my hotel room waiting for my buddies to get ready. We are heading downtown to go walk around the NFL stuff

wtf do you do for a living, being assistant manager

 

[mcnabb7542]

center OMFG!

Listen up simpletons :

In todays offenses you have more calls at the line of scrimmages, ( check with me)
You got the QB reading what the defense is in, and coverage.
Once he barks out what he wants to run the "Center" makes the blocking schemes calls ( yes that means he telling those high priced OT's who to block and where to move to)

Now today's media tells you that the left tackle is the most important person on the Oline, ( and sure there is some merits since they have to protect the blind side and for most of the part are pretty much alone one on one)
But to run the ball your interior three linemen are what makes the running game go. And it is the "center" that makes those calls since 80% of run plays today are zone blocking plays.

To think the center is the "least important" position on the line is like saying the world is flat!
You need that center that is going to study the game tape of the opposition and understand their defenses,
theirs stunts, their tendency's in downs and distance. He is just as important as the QB reading the defense.

So in conclusion :

* Center is very important
* And yes centers are being drafted to play guards, ( which skews stats on how many centers there really are)

And @DutchBird nice write up buddy, I enjoyed seeing those numbers!

 

[SteelersPride]

center OMFG!

Listen up simpletons :

In todays offenses you have more calls at the line of scrimmages, ( check with me)
You got the QB reading what the defense is in, and coverage.
Once he barks out what he wants to run the "Center" makes the blocking schemes calls ( yes that means he telling those high priced OT's who to block and where to move to)

Now today's media tells you that the left tackle is the most important person on the Oline, ( and sure there is some merits since they have to protect the blind side and for most of the part are pretty much alone one on one)
But to run the ball your interior three linemen are what makes the running game go. And it is the "center" that makes those calls since 80% of run plays today are zone blocking plays.

To think the center is the "least important" position on the line is like saying the world is flat!
You need that center that is going to study the game tape of the opposition and understand their defenses,
theirs stunts, their tendency's in downs and distance. He is just as important as the QB reading the defense.

So in conclusion :

* Center is very important
* And yes centers are being drafted to play guards, ( which skews stats on how many centers there really are)

And @DutchBird nice write up buddy, I enjoyed seeing those numbers!

its your fanbase disputing centers for months on end, unless you guys have disowned him.

 

[mcnabb7542]

I am. I’m in my hotel room waiting for my buddies to get ready. We are heading downtown to go walk around the NFL stuff

Just don't have the night before the Super Bowl like this guy did :

 

[mcnabb7542]

its your fanbase disputing centers for months on end, unless you guys have disowned him.

Hey now don't go down that road again! lumpin folks together like that!

 

[SteelersPride]

Hey now don't go down that road again! lumpin folks together like that!

im just asking, is he yours? like we claim @FaCe-LeE-uS hes a steeler fan, stand behind him.........

 

[DutchBird]

There’s so much “wrong” with that “research” it’s too much to list. I say that with respect to @DutchBird. First, the comparisons are off bc there are more guards and tackles than centers. Therefore, it only stands to reason that those numbers would be disproportionate./quote]

I already accounted for the fact that there are twice as many guards as centers.

Point to me what is wrong, and do it better.

I linked the sources.

I think round 3 is a reasonable cut-off for the draft to judge what is teems consider important, as by and large those are seen as the picks that should end up as starters or high end back-ups.

Pay does also say something about what is considered important, as flawed as that is due to different contracts and when they were signed (see Lane Johnson as an example). If top centers were truly considered so important as you claim, the highest paid center should probably rank higher than 24th on the O-lineman pay list.

I would also think that the highest paid center should be paid higher than the highest paid guards, or better than the 15th LT, considering the quality of OT's that is fielded at LT by so many teams if it is such an important position as you seem to claim it is..

I NEVER said that the numbers were disproportionate, I EXPLICITLY took that into account!

Look, this is easy. @PhoenixEagles1 ORIGINAL premise was “centers were the LEAST important” position on the team”. Not surprisingly he’s come off that position to say among the least important. To me, what @DutchBird shows is that centers are far from least important. If they were truly the LEAST important (or among the least important) they we be at the BOTTOM of the pay scale. They would NEVER be amongst the highest paid offensive lineman. Is PE1 saying the Eagles are stupid for paying Lane Johnson all that money for a very unimportant position like center? Are the Steelers stupid for wasting a high pick on Pouncy?

Whether PE indeed claimed that center is the least important position on the team, as you claim he did, I am not sure (not going to look it up). Based on your reading skills as evidenced in your response to my data I leave that in the open.

First of all, the fact that the highest paid center is only 24th on the pay scale list does suggest that high end guards and high end LT's are ranked higher (LT's much higher) than centers. As soon as you are talking about good to average guards and centers they are roughly considered equal with RT's (from what I saw of the salaries, guards are still slightly higher on the pay scale).

A quick glance suggests that the only center that is the highest paid lineman on the team is (Richburg) for SF. On all the other teams it seems to be the LT or a Guard. As an example - Kelce, arguably the best center in the NFL - is only the 4th highest paid lineman on the team (behind Johnson, Peters and Brooks).

Pay-scale there is a difference at the top (one which cannot be explained by there being two tackles and two guards vs one center. Which seems to be that a top guard is deemed slightly more important than a top center (otherwhise why are they paid more?).

As I said, center - based on pay scale - seems to be considered on par with RT, which seems to be slightly above average guards.

BTW, your bolded argument is completely faulty. They are actually NOT among the highest paid offensive lineman. At the top of the scale they rank at the bottom (top 25). If your argument were true, they would be ranked higher.

Centers are hugely important to a teams success. First, there just aren’t many of them around and even fewer on a team. When you do find a really good one you draft them high and pay them well. THAT right there shows how important they are!!! If you follow PE1s logic you should NEVER draft one high or pay them well because “it’s easy”. Nonsense. [/quote]

Except that data shows they are not drafted high (not higher than guards) at all. They - comparatively - are not paid as high as you would expect either (much closer to average LT money than they are now). The best centers only make average LT money! That would simply not be happening if centers were considered as important as you seem to claim they are.

Similarly, you would also expect centers to have been drafted higher overall. More in the first round, and more of them high(er) in the first round, than actually have been. They pretty much consistently LT's and guards have been picked above them.

There are - relatively - just as many centers as there are for any other position on any team, considering they are drafted from NCAA teams, which field these individuals in the same ration for the 1st and 2nd stringers (the only ones likely to be drafted anyway).

Look... if you have 2 tackles you make your best one watch the QBs blind side. If you have 2 CBs you put one in man to man coverage and you give the other help over the top. If you have 2 safeties you... never mind... you get the point. Are you really going to tell me that center is less important than the second tackle on the team, the second CB on the depth chart, the second and third WR on the depth chart, etc etc etc

Based on draft position, pay, etc. then they at best - and on average - are considered at best equal to the 2nd WR, 2nd CB, RT, G, DE etc. on the team.

I agree you should not underestimate the importance of C, but you seem to do almost the opposite of what PE is doing:

- Guards are expected to pull. Centers comparatively rarely are (at least based on how writers, announcers etc. are talking about Kelce).

- Centers do not necessarily make the line calls, that all depends on what the team decides. It can (and is, apparently) also be done by for instance QB's and Guards.

- Guards are also expected to pick up stunts, adapt to slides, and to aid the C whenever possible.

Is your center less important than your 4th WR, or so? No.

Looking at what teams seem to spend money on - based on 22 starters - where centers are drafted, what they get paid. etc. then yeah, they might be considered among the less important positions on the team. But again, the evidence is ambiguous.

When looking at pay per team, the center averages the 14,4th highest paid position. However, there are extremes, 2nd (San Francisco) to 39 (NYG). Even the link between high pay and high quality O-line play is somewhat ambiguous. The top 10-graded O-lines (per Football Outsiders) have the center paid as 12,7th highest paid position. Again, with extremes: 6th highest paid on the team (TB and NO, ranked 9th and 8th) to 37th highest (Baltimore, ranked 10). The best O-line (Pitt) had C ranked as 7th, Phi (4th ranked) as 13th, NE (5th ranked) as 17th.

NFL Rankings

2018 NFL Offensive Line Rankings: All 32 teams' units after Week 17 | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus

Personally, I think it is easier to work around a so-so center with one or both of the guards, than to work around so-so guards with your center.

 

[DutchBird]

and there! there right there is some valid arguments, back up with some research,(even without a source)
its not hard to find objective data, and provide it. But when you provide objective data, then continuously change the data, or go purely subjective for months, its idiotic. Hell even made a thread on positional importance, somehow how he declares it a fail and comes in talking about centers. Cant even comprehend what the damn thread is about. Regardless, nice work

Sources are linked through URL live link.

 

[SteelersPride]

Sources are linked through URL live link.

Soooooo @PhoenixEagles1 is lying?

 

[mcnabb7542]

im just asking, is he yours? like we claim @FaCe-LeE-uS hes a steeler fan, stand behind him.........

A) Im not going to fall into trolling one specific member
B) I actually enjoy chatting with @FaCe-LeE-uS he is not over bearing like some
C) Its a sports message board, not everyone is going to have the same thoughts, beliefs, or lifestyles.
D) Now I will go troll someone that deserves to be targeted on here

 

[SteelersPride]

A) Im not going to fall into trolling one specific member
B) I actually enjoy chatting with @FaCe-LeE-uS he is not over bearing like some
C) Its a sports message board, not everyone is going to have the same thoughts, beliefs, or lifestyles.
D) Now I will go troll someone that deserves to be targeted on here

There’s a definite deserving person here and u know it

 

[DutchBird]

BTW, to look at the draft (as flawed as that method with some simplistic calculations is); the assumption is that if a position is seen as more valuable, relatively more high draft picks will be spent on those positions. This is crude, since it does not take for instance positional attrition into account (like RB's, where attrition is high).

Drafted in the first round (by number) over the past 20 years, on average per round:

QB: 2.9
RB: 2.5
TE: 1.1
WR: 3.9
OT: 3.5
G: 1.2
C: 0.6

DE: 4
DT: 3.2
LB: 3.2
DB: 5.8

Now looking simplisticly at importance, if all positions were equally important, they would - relatively - be drafted equally. That means that as there are 2 DE's vs 1 center, DE's should be drafted twice as often if they were deemed equally important, so the relative score should be 2. Of course that makes it difficult for positions as WR (3 or 2 WR set), TE (1 or 2 TE set), MLB (3-4, 4-3, nickel or base), DB (nickel or base), where the number of them on the field can vary.

For those positions, to be relatively equal, I chose the resulting factors:

QB: 1; RB: 2; WR: 3; TE: 1.5; OT: 2; G: 2; C: 1; DE: 2; DT: 2; LB: 3; DB: 5;

As such, this is (1st rounders drafted/#centers drafted).

QB: 4.8
RB: 4.1
WR: 6.5
TE: 1.8
OT: 5.8
G: 1.9
C: 1

DE: 6,7
DT: 5.3
LB: 5.3
DB: 9.6

As you can see by this extremely basic calculation, only G comes out underdrafted relatively to center. And even that is made more ambiguous by the fact that College OT's, G, and C's are all drafted to not only play their own natural position, but regularly also G or G/C.

 

[DutchBird]

Soooooo @PhoenixEagles1 is lying?

Not sure what PE1's lies are supposed to be (since both sides seem to be twisting things).

I do think he is oversimplifying and overstating things (to put it fairly mildly). Same - in the other direction - IMHO dbldown.

 

[SteelersPride]

Not sure what PE1's lies are supposed to be (since both sides seem to be twisting things).

I do think he is oversimplifying and overstating things (to put it fairly mildly). Same - in the other direction - IMHO dbldown.

Well let’s just give one example. The argument was centers don’t get drafted in the first round so they aren’t important, we proved that wrong, so then it was too 15, then we proved that wrong so now we’re at top 14.

 

[Roy Munson]

I saw @Roy Munson post on that thread. I know he was joking bc he didn’t say “BOOM” at the end!

I'm always joking...


bOoM!

 

[PhoenixEagles1]

Telling me what Centers do doesn’t move them up the hierarchy of importance my man.