Byrd and Buck

[thecrow124]

Also, is super young for his level, so he has a lot of upside. Not sure I agree he can move back to SS, I heard the arm isn't good, I think he is a second basemen long term.

I have read that he doesn't have a strong arm, but he is 150#. With added muscle and a good throwing program I could see him building up enough arm strength to play SS. I wouldn't say it was a certainty that he could, but like Hanson if there is a chance he could play the position I personally would play him there until he proves that he can not. In the long run SS is the harder position to fill and carries more value. If Herrera could make it to the majors as a SS, this trade would be even better for the Mets. Worst case is he can't play the position and you move him back to second.

 

[thecrow124]

What I find amusing and infuriating at the same time is how this year Huntington is being heaped with praise for making this move to bolster our line-up. But two year ago we acquired Ryan Ludwick and Derek Lee who are both superior players to Byrd and Buck combined but Huntington was lambasted for not trying to win.

In reality we gave up nothing of value for Lee and Ludwick but gave up a pretty good middle infield prospect and a PTBNL for Byrd and a catcher that should be 4th on our depth chart. My opinion is the complete opposite, the Lee/Ludwick deals were exactly the right thing to do, get help and pay money. Today's trade is the exact wrong way to go about it.

Lastly I just have to get this out. We are not going to colapse to the point where we won't have a winning season, and we will likely make the playoffs, but make no mistakes, we are fading and it is going to continue. There is a multitude of reasons why, and honestly most of them there is just nothing that can be done about them. Cole is getting tired and is probably 30 innings at most from being moved to the bullpen. Locke has rediscovered the form of his last 2 seasons at the major league level. Wandy is most likely done for the year and who knows when he will pitch again. The team can't score runs and Byrd and Buck aren't the answer for that problem. Marte is hurt and the minor league seasons might be done by the time he is allowed to swing a bat so he will be rehabbing at the major league level. We have 4 positions that should be in platoons and that is half of our offense.

 

[sychmd]

Lastly I just have to get this out. We are not going to colapse to the point where we won't have a winning season, and we will likely make the playoffs, but make no mistakes, we are fading and it is going to continue. There is a multitude of reasons why, and honestly most of them there is just nothing that can be done about them. Cole is getting tired and is probably 30 innings at most from being moved to the bullpen. Locke has rediscovered the form of his last 2 seasons at the major league level. Wandy is most likely done for the year and who knows when he will pitch again. The team can't score runs and Byrd and Buck aren't the answer for that problem. Marte is hurt and the minor league seasons might be done by the time he is allowed to swing a bat so he will be rehabbing at the major league level. We have 4 positions that should be in platoons and that is half of our offense.

well said, and i agree,

this was not to be our year. it is just a stepping stone. in the pirates position, you have to play probabilities, not just possibilities.
to lose a potential piece of the future for a chance this year is poor odds. herrera might not be someone, but didnt need to spend him now.
getting 2 rentals when this is not our year, again against the odds. in one month, we will have a playoff series loss and no byrd or buck. same place we would have been without them.
if you want to give herrera, give a bit more, or money and get someone who will stay longer.
if we were going to get someone, it should have been to get someone that would be with us 3-6 years when we are really threatening and have a higher probability of sustained quality throughout the lineup, and not just defying the odds with some improbable set of circumstances that are set for regression to the likely level of probability.

i am excited about this year, it has exceeded expectations, but didnt want us to sacrifice future for now as this years ceiling is limited. we dont have the superstars to make the late season magical run of teams like the cards or giants have done in the past. look at those rosters and see how many real stars were on those teams, compared to what we have. to catch magic in a bottle so to speak, you still have to have some great players to take it all the way. we arent there yet. so unless we were going to bring in 3 stars, we werent going all the way anyways. that is ok this year. in 2-3 years, i might have a higher expectation, but it all depends on how our young pitchers develop.

 

[evolver115]

I'm intrigued to see some of the responses on here about the trade. Crow and sych seem to think they gave up too valuable a piece in Herrera for two rental players.

I'm not about to tell you that you are wrong, but the premise that this is a premature and wasteful move of a minor league prospect because we should have greater expectations for said prospect and this ball club down the road, and expect less of the current club... I find this train of thought flawed.

There are no guarantees for the future. There is nothing written in stone that says from 2014 on, the Pirates are legitimate contenders in the NL. Look at what the 2013 Pirates greatest asset is.. a comeback player of the year worthy season from Francisco Liriano, and a always steady AJ Burnett taking the hill every five days. AJ will be 37 and a pending free agent in 14, and Liriano will still hold the moniker of a supremely talented but highly erratic and inconsistent starting pitcher. Both of them are having career years compared to their career averages.

Combine that with the career year Pedro is having at the plate, along with what we all assumed Cutch would continue to do with the bat, and just how close they are to actually winning this division.. Huntington would've been crazy to NOT try and address the black hole that is right field, plus add some insurance behind martin and the bench.

Herrera was rated inside of Pirates Prospects top ten, and other forums had him just outside of the top ten prospects currently in the system. He certainly isn't just some scrub going over to the Mets, but let's not try and make it sound like we gave up one of our even top 6th or 7th prospects, because that just isn't true. Herrera is not that. He has 51 errors in 227 games (25 at 2B), and he strikes out 22% of the time in combined plate appearances. There are no guarantees that this guy is even in the bigs in two to three years.

When you have a chance to go for it all right now with what got your here, plus adding reinforcements for the stretch run, I say you better go and do it. There are no guarantees they will be in this same position even one season from now.

 

[thecrow124]

I'm intrigued to see some of the responses on here about the trade. Crow and sych seem to think they gave up too valuable a piece in Herrera for two rental players.

I'm not about to tell you that you are wrong, but the premise that this is a premature and wasteful move of a minor league prospect because we should have greater expectations for said prospect and this ball club down the road, and expect less of the current club... I find this train of thought flawed.

There are no guarantees for the future. There is nothing written in stone that says from 2014 on, the Pirates are legitimate contenders in the NL. Look at what the 2013 Pirates greatest asset is.. a comeback player of the year worthy season from Francisco Liriano, and a always steady AJ Burnett taking the hill every five days. AJ will be 37 and a pending free agent in 14, and Liriano will still hold the moniker of a supremely talented but highly erratic and inconsistent starting pitcher. Both of them are having career years compared to their career averages.

Combine that with the career year Pedro is having at the plate, along with what we all assumed Cutch would continue to do with the bat, and just how close they are to actually winning this division.. Huntington would've been crazy to NOT try and address the black hole that is right field, plus add some insurance behind martin and the bench.

Herrera was rated inside of Pirates Prospects top ten, and other forums had him just outside of the top ten prospects currently in the system. He certainly isn't just some scrub going over to the Mets, but let's not try and make it sound like we gave up one of our even top 6th or 7th prospects, because that just isn't true. Herrera is not that. He has 51 errors in 227 games (25 at 2B), and he strikes out 22% of the time in combined plate appearances. There are no guarantees that this guy is even in the bigs in two to three years.

When you have a chance to go for it all right now with what got your here, plus adding reinforcements for the stretch run, I say you better go and do it. There are no guarantees they will be in this same position even one season from now.

Since you brought up career years, did you happen to look at Marlon Byrd's career? This is his best year ever, even better than when he played in Texas during his prime. He is due to regress, and will probably do so playing right field for the Pirates.

I think I kind of misstated my arguement, I am in no way opposed to trading prospects, I am opposed to trading legitimate prospects for rentals of 36 year olds in the midst of career years. I also said in a previous post that most of the reasoning I did not like this trade is for personal reasons.

While Herrera is right around #10 on prospect lists for the Pirates, he is also a top 150 prospect in all of baseball. He could be a top 5 prospect in quite a few systems. He was also the #9 2B prospect in baseball according to Jonathan Mayo. So he is more valuable that you might think.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Even if Buck doesn't produce or play much he's a great clubhouse guy. I think he had a lot to do with some of the Mets pitchers overachieving this year and everybody seemed to like him. For a young team that could be in the playoffs that type of vet experience and presence can't be overstated.

 

[element1286]

I have read that he doesn't have a strong arm, but he is 150#. With added muscle and a good throwing program I could see him building up enough arm strength to play SS. I wouldn't say it was a certainty that he could, but like Hanson if there is a chance he could play the position I personally would play him there until he proves that he can not. In the long run SS is the harder position to fill and carries more value. If Herrera could make it to the majors as a SS, this trade would be even better for the Mets. Worst case is he can't play the position and you move him back to second.

True, but I think it says something that the Pirates aren't even willing to put him there at all.

 

[element1286]

What I find amusing and infuriating at the same time is how this year Huntington is being heaped with praise for making this move to bolster our line-up. But two year ago we acquired Ryan Ludwick and Derek Lee who are both superior players to Byrd and Buck combined but Huntington was lambasted for not trying to win.

In reality we gave up nothing of value for Lee and Ludwick but gave up a pretty good middle infield prospect and a PTBNL for Byrd and a catcher that should be 4th on our depth chart. My opinion is the complete opposite, the Lee/Ludwick deals were exactly the right thing to do, get help and pay money. Today's trade is the exact wrong way to go about it.

Lastly I just have to get this out. We are not going to colapse to the point where we won't have a winning season, and we will likely make the playoffs, but make no mistakes, we are fading and it is going to continue. There is a multitude of reasons why, and honestly most of them there is just nothing that can be done about them. Cole is getting tired and is probably 30 innings at most from being moved to the bullpen. Locke has rediscovered the form of his last 2 seasons at the major league level. Wandy is most likely done for the year and who knows when he will pitch again. The team can't score runs and Byrd and Buck aren't the answer for that problem. Marte is hurt and the minor league seasons might be done by the time he is allowed to swing a bat so he will be rehabbing at the major league level. We have 4 positions that should be in platoons and that is half of our offense.

And Wandy last year, yea I agree, the 'Make a trade!!!' crowd is ill-informed.

I agree, the Pirates are fading, or so it appears, but if they fade in 90 wins and a playoff spot, I'm ok with that. I can't imagine anyone not being ok with that.

Although I think Byrd is a definite upgrade over what they currently have in RF, have a hard time believing he won't be.

 

[evolver115]

Since you brought up career years, did you happen to look at Marlon Byrd's career? This is his best year ever, even better than when he played in Texas during his prime. He is due to regress, and will probably do so playing right field for the Pirates.

Even in regression, Byrd represents a fairly sizable upgrade in both offense and defense compared to the woeful platoon of Tabata/Jones/Pie/Lambo. They could not afford to go down the stretch with that weak juggling act continuing all the way through the end of September.

I think I kind of misstated my arguement, I am in no way opposed to trading prospects, I am opposed to trading legitimate prospects for rentals of 36 year olds in the midst of career years. I also said in a previous post that most of the reasoning I did not like this trade is for personal reasons.

While Herrera is right around #10 on prospect lists for the Pirates, he is also a top 150 prospect in all of baseball. He could be a top 5 prospect in quite a few systems. He was also the #9 2B prospect in baseball according to Jonathan Mayo. So he is more valuable that you might think.

Herrera might be more valuable in a weaker farm system like the Mets, but don't forget that the Pirates current system is one of their greatest strengths. It hasn't been as deep and potential laden with prospects in probably twenty-five years. They have that luxury of dealing one quality prospect for help, now when they desperately need it. Tomorrow is no guarantee. When you have a chance to win now, IMO.. you better pursue it with every means available.

 

[sychmd]

to clarify,
i am ok with a trade. but to think this is our year to win it and it might not happen again is wrong strategy. with our market size and finances, we have to play probability, scout well, and develop.
if they are rentals and we dont give up anything but some money, i am fine with that.
trading future pieces or chips is great, but rentals when we dont have a chance at winning it all is not smart to trade these chips for.
i dont know if herrera will develop or bomb. it certainly appears he is talented, but only for 2B.
if we are trading (which i am all for upgrading our roster), we need to get onging help, if possible targeting the years when we are expecting a realistic chance of competing for all the marbles.

teams that win it all have 3-6 stars, not just one year flash in the pans.
then their supporting players have some career years and key times to be clutch.

we dont have 3-6 stars, we have one - cutch.
we are hoping marte and alvarez can become stars.
liriano has 1/2 year, locke 1/2 year, and so does grilli.
cole is not harvey or alvarez(marlins), marte is not trout, alvarez is not goldschmidt, burnett is not wainright. this is what we needed to be serious WS contenders

rentals for a good prospect are for teams that are one piece away from winning it all or very rich teams that can replace the rental in FA the following year.

save our chips(herrera, bell, a pitcher-not taillon or heredia) for stanton or trumbo or someone who will be a starter/star for several years as the others grow and we add strategically and smartly.

 

[Darkstone42]

Anything can happen in the playoffs. That's why the Giants have two World Series titles with their current core. They won the Series with Juan Uribe getting regular at bats.

And anything can happen in future years. Once you're contending, you go for it. Ask the Nationals about that. Because next year, Cutch could suffer a serious injury, Pedro could forget how to hit, Cole's arm could fall off. Anything could happen.

I don't have a problem giving up a guy who is likely four to five years from the Majors in order to get help now. As long as it isn't a regular occurrence, it's fine with me. Who knows? Maybe this will spark the offense and take some pressure off the pitching, and we'll go on a little run to end the season and win the division. Maybe that run will give us confidence and momentum going into the postseason.

Regardless, the last two years, the Pirates' market expanded. We're still a small market team, but I think we'll be able to afford to cover up some mistakes going forward. Our payroll is going to go up, and players are going to be more willing to come to Pittsburgh. Losing Herrera ultimately may prove to be nothing, especially if this kind of move makes signing new players, free agents and draft picks, easier and less expensive.

Is it a risk? Yeah. Did we give up a quality prospect for two rentals who may or may not help us down the stretch (I'm certain Byrd will, regression or not)? Yeah. Is the move without virtue or benefit? Absolutely not.

 

[ramburgh]

The other factor is that Byrd should give McCutchen better pitches to hit if Byrd bats 4th.

Also, the Pirates now have one of the best hitting teams in baseball against left handed pitching. They can have a top 6 (ops v. lhp) of:
Marte (1.079), Mercer (1.094), McCutchen (1.120), Byrd (0.980), G. Sanchez (0.958), Harrison (1.259)

Harrison in at second or possibly third.

Unfortunately, Cincy has no starters who are LHP. Cards have Lyons, Garcia and Gast (not sure if the Pirates would even face any of those guys in a meaningful game). Braves have Maholm and Minor. Dodgers have Capuano, Kershaw and Ryu. Dare we hope to face the Braves or Dodgers over the Reds and Cardinals in the playoffs?

 

[stillmatic32]

Who was sent down today?

 

[redskin4209]

Who was sent down today?

Pirates optioned C Tony Sanchez to Triple-A Indianapolis

 

[evolver115]

Who was sent down today?

Pirates optioned C Tony Sanchez to Triple-A Indianapolis

Along with the Sanchez demotion, they also cleared spots on the 40-man roster, minor league outfielder Russ Canzler was designated for assignment and pitcher Kyle McPherson (elbow surgery) was transferred to the 60-day disabled list.

 

[pixburgher66]

Geez...Pirate fans don't know how to be positive, do they?

 

[redskin4209]

Pirates optioned LHP Jeff Locke to Double-A Altoona.

Locke had an ERA of 2.15 just a month ago, but he's really struggled since then, putting up an 8.10 mark to go along with a 2.33 WHIP. He had been slated to start on Sunday against the Cardinals, but the Pirates will obviously have to call someone else up for that outing. Jeanmar Gomez and Brandon Cumpton are options.

 

[Darkstone42]

Vic Black was the PTBNL. I can live with that.

 

[element1286]

Vic Black was the PTBNL. I can live with that.

Seriously?

 

[Darkstone42]

Seriously?

Perhaps an erroneous report, but that's what I read.