Broncos coach search

[WalkerBoh]

Was reading earlier actually on the whole if Manning comes back this year thing. They were suggesting that if Manning does come back then the Broncos need to look to trade Osweiler. With his contract running out after this season there is a good chance the Broncos will have to use a draft pick on a quarterback to ensure that we still have a viable option next year say Osweiler decides to go elsewhere and we are left with nothing. I think it makes sense. I would love to see what Osweiler could do with Kubiak as I think they are a great match but at this point might be time to see if we can get any kind of value out of him.

I doubt we get that much value. There's no real game footage for teams to salivate over, and Kolb, Flynn, are still fresh in people's minds. He might be a franchise candidate.

 

[cdumler7]

I doubt we get that much value. There's no real game footage for teams to salivate over, and Kolb, Flynn, are still fresh in people's minds. He might be a franchise candidate.

If we tag him though that is $16 million for the quarterback position. I highly doubt we would do that. I agree there will not be a ton of value that we get back but with so many quarterback needy teams maybe a high 3rd round pick could be had (considering we spent a low 2nd round pick that wouldn't be too terrible).

 

[Broncosr0k]

A high third is probably dreaming. Osweiler is still too much of an enigma. The broncos would have to contact teams and maybe have them do some workouts with him. The broncos will have to sell him, which could be a red flag. Teams are going to ask why we are getting rid of talent worth the pick. Or they can wait knowing he will likely be a FA and scoop him up on the cheap.

With Osweiler, I am not sure there will be a good outcome other than Manning retires after this year and we are confident in keeping Osweiler for the long term.

 

[cdumler7]

A high third is probably dreaming. Osweiler is still too much of an enigma. The broncos would have to contact teams and maybe have them do some workouts with him. The broncos will have to sell him, which could be a red flag. Teams are going to ask why we are getting rid of talent worth the pick. Or they can wait knowing he will likely be a FA and scoop him up on the cheap.

With Osweiler, I am not sure there will be a good outcome other than Manning retires after this year and we are confident in keeping Osweiler for the long term.

It might be wishful thinking but quarterbacks always seem to be overvalued. I'm just having a hard time seeing that if Manning comes back that Osweiler stays a Bronco. I want him to as again I think he fits really well into a Kubiak system (keep thinking of Jake Plummer type skill set) but with his contract running out we might be running into the Patriot situation with Mallet.

 

[notorious98]

Except that the defense played very well in the playoffs last season. Considering how many injuries the defense had last season, I think the way they played was Fox's best coaching job.

Not really. They came up with a few big plays, but I wouldn't say they played well as opposed to Denver possessing the ball on offense and keeping the other team off the field. In both games, Denver had the ball for 35+ minutes. In the game against New England, the defense forced two 3 and outs. Then they gave up drives of 7 plays, two 9 play drives, a 13 play drive, and a 10 play drive. Belichick twice passed up the chance to attempt a 56 yard field goal, once to punt and the other because they were down by so much. On the flip side, Denver had five possession that took up at least 4 minutes and scored on all but 2 possessions. One of those possessions ended the game. They were better against San Diego, but again, Denver had 5 drives where they held the ball for at least 4 minutes and 4 of those drives took at least 5 minutes. Denver controlled the clock on offense and subsequently controlled the game.

Also, let's not forget that the Patriots and Chargers were without their best offensive weapons, at least when it came to playing Denver. The Pats didn't have Gronk and the Chargers didn't have the guy who absolutely destroyed Denver in their previous meeting, Ryan Matthews. The latter of which was already off to a pretty good start when he got knocked out of the game. Sorry if I'm not impressed that they were able to shut down Julian Edelman.

 

[notorious98]

It might be wishful thinking but quarterbacks always seem to be overvalued. I'm just having a hard time seeing that if Manning comes back that Osweiler stays a Bronco. I want him to as again I think he fits really well into a Kubiak system (keep thinking of Jake Plummer type skill set) but with his contract running out we might be running into the Patriot situation with Mallet.

QBs aren't THAT overvalued. Mallet is actually the perfect example, but the contract wasn't the sticking point for that situation. It was that the Pats had no need to trade him until they drafted Garoppolo. And, at that point, Mallet's value dropped because it became obvious the Patriots were looking to get rid of him. That told teams one thing. He wasn't the guy and his talent was questionable.

The problem with Osweiler will be similar in that there is no book on him. But you've already lost 3-4 years of his development and he's not the same clean slate he would be coming out of college. If they were to trade him, they should consider themselves lucky if the other team gives up a 6th.

 

[Broncos6482]

Not really. They came up with a few big plays, but I wouldn't say they played well as opposed to Denver possessing the ball on offense and keeping the other team off the field. In both games, Denver had the ball for 35+ minutes. In the game against New England, the defense forced two 3 and outs. Then they gave up drives of 7 plays, two 9 play drives, a 13 play drive, and a 10 play drive. Belichick twice passed up the chance to attempt a 56 yard field goal, once to punt and the other because they were down by so much. On the flip side, Denver had five possession that took up at least 4 minutes and scored on all but 2 possessions. One of those possessions ended the game. They were better against San Diego, but again, Denver had 5 drives where they held the ball for at least 4 minutes and 4 of those drives took at least 5 minutes. Denver controlled the clock on offense and subsequently controlled the game.

Also, let's not forget that the Patriots and Chargers were without their best offensive weapons, at least when it came to playing Denver. The Pats didn't have Gronk and the Chargers didn't have the guy who absolutely destroyed Denver in their previous meeting, Ryan Matthews. The latter of which was already off to a pretty good start when he got knocked out of the game. Sorry if I'm not impressed that they were able to shut down Julian Edelman.

They allowed 17 and 16 points. The Chargers failed to put points on the board their first 5 possessions. And this was the week after scoring 27 against the Bengals. The Patriots put 43 points up on the Colts, and then managed 16 against Denver. They had 3 points until the 4th quarter, and failed to score on 4 of their first 5 drives. Blount, who had torched the Colts for 166 yards and 4 touchdowns the previous week, was held to 6 yards.

You can try to dismiss it anyway you like, but the Broncos defense played well in the 2013 AFC playoffs.

 

[randymon]

It might be wishful thinking but quarterbacks always seem to be overvalued. I'm just having a hard time seeing that if Manning comes back that Osweiler stays a Bronco. I want him to as again I think he fits really well into a Kubiak system (keep thinking of Jake Plummer type skill set) but with his contract running out we might be running into the Patriot situation with Mallet.

That`s why it`s a real mystery ( to me anyway) exactly what Elway and Kubby have in mind with the QB situation. Doesn`t make alot of sense to this guy, that Kubiak would be ok with an uncertain qb game plan. I just have to think that there is more to his decision to come to Denver other than familiarity and a 1 yr shot with Manning. We should be prepared for the unexpected to rear its head probably befor its all said and done though

 

[WalkerBoh]

If we tag him though that is $16 million for the quarterback position. I highly doubt we would do that. I agree there will not be a ton of value that we get back but with so many quarterback needy teams maybe a high 3rd round pick could be had (considering we spent a low 2nd round pick that wouldn't be too terrible).

My bad. I was thinking something different.

Still, not sure we'd get any real value for him.

 

[notorious98]

They allowed 17 and 16 points. The Chargers failed to put points on the board their first 5 possessions. And this was the week after scoring 27 against the Bengals. The Patriots put 43 points up on the Colts, and then managed 16 against Denver. They had 3 points until the 4th quarter, and failed to score on 4 of their first 5 drives. Blount, who had torched the Colts for 166 yards and 4 touchdowns the previous week, was held to 6 yards.

You can try to dismiss it anyway you like, but the Broncos defense played well in the 2013 AFC playoffs.

Their defense was okay against two offenses that were questionable. The week before, the Chargers had Ryan Matthews. They lost him after 5 carries in the Divisional round. The week before, the Chargers forced 4 turnovers, were outgained in yardage by more than 100 yards, started in Bengal territory twice (including on the 3 yard line), and were able to run the ball with Matthews, Woodhead, and Brown. Rivers had 126 yards passing. Let's not act like it was some juggernaut offensive performance.

In the Patriot game, the Colts couldn't stop the run. Similar to what we saw on Sunday. And what we saw in Indy in November. They also started two drives at the Indy 2 and 18. The problem came down to the fact that they couldn't run the ball against Denver. When Denver were ahead enough that the Patriots had to throw, they were exposed for their lack of playmakers.

If you'd like a breakdown of it, Denver's defense expected points added was a negative in both games. For reference, the Patriots defense against the Colts the previous week was a positive in all three phases, passing, rushing, and turnovers. The Chargers defense the previous week against the Bengals was nearly double the amount of EPA than their offense. Seattle didn't have a single negative overall performance on defense at all in the two playoff games before the Super Bowl. And they only gave up 1 less point. Don't let the point totals fool you. Those two offenses were not very good.

 

[Broncos6482]

Their defense was okay against two offenses that were questionable. The week before, the Chargers had Ryan Matthews. They lost him after 5 carries in the Divisional round. The week before, the Chargers forced 4 turnovers, were outgained in yardage by more than 100 yards, started in Bengal territory twice (including on the 3 yard line), and were able to run the ball with Matthews, Woodhead, and Brown. Rivers had 126 yards passing. Let's not act like it was some juggernaut offensive performance.

In the Patriot game, the Colts couldn't stop the run. Similar to what we saw on Sunday. And what we saw in Indy in November. They also started two drives at the Indy 2 and 18. The problem came down to the fact that they couldn't run the ball against Denver. When Denver were ahead enough that the Patriots had to throw, they were exposed for their lack of playmakers.

If you'd like a breakdown of it, Denver's defense expected points added was a negative in both games. For reference, the Patriots defense against the Colts the previous week was a positive in all three phases, passing, rushing, and turnovers. The Chargers defense the previous week against the Bengals was nearly double the amount of EPA than their offense. Seattle didn't have a single negative overall performance on defense at all in the two playoff games before the Super Bowl. And they only gave up 1 less point. Don't let the point totals fool you. Those two offenses were not very good.

You make a lot of excuses to try to discredit two good defensive performances. Sure Matthews got hurt, but the Chargers still had Ronnie Brown who went for 77 yards on 8 carries against the Bengals.

And I like how you just dismiss the Broncos complete shutting down of Blount in the AFC Championship game. That was obviously the game plan and it worked, yet somehow it doesn't count because he torched the Colts the week before? Or something.

The bottom line is, the only thing that matters is points. The Broncos allowed 17 and 16 points. That's good defense.

 

[WalkerBoh]

You make a lot of excuses to try to discredit two good defensive performances. Sure Matthews got hurt, but the Chargers still had Ronnie Brown who went for 77 yards on 8 carries against the Bengals.

And I like how you just dismiss the Broncos complete shutting down of Blount in the AFC Championship game. That was obviously the game plan and it worked, yet somehow it doesn't count because he torched the Colts the week before? Or something.

The bottom line is, the only thing that matters is points. The Broncos allowed 17 and 16 points. That's good defense.

If I recall correctly, total yardage in those games was rather good too. Against SD, we ALSO only allowed 194 yards passing, and 259 total yards (about 140 yards less than the Chargers' average). Against the Patriots we allowed a total of 320 yards which was a good 60 yards less than their average. Any time you can keep opposing offenses well under their averages, that's pretty good.

Even in the Super Bowl, it took the Seahawks two drives and a fluke safety just to build a one TD lead. Our defense was keeping us in that game for a while. Imagine if our offense had done more than simply crap the bed.....

 

[WalkerBoh]

The bottom line is, the only thing that matters is points. The Broncos allowed 17 and 16 points. That's good defense.

It's also important to see WHEN during the game these points were scored.

 

[Broncos6482]

Two very good points, Walker.

 

[iknowftbll]

That rule is only for candidates for a HC post. Other moves regardless of whether it's an upward move or not can be blocked.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Either way, it's a crappy move by the Bengals. Then again, it's hard to knock the Bengals for blocking a move if they believe that's in their best interest. Plus after what they did for that player whose daughter had cancer...as an organization they seem to be pretty classy.

 

[cdumler7]

So some updates on the coaches for the defense.

Right now it looks like Broncos are still waiting a bit in hopes that Cincinnati changes its mind on Joseph but other candidates are Mike Smith from Atlanta, Richard Smith our Linebackers coach, Wade Phillips, and Don "Wink" Martindale.

So right now I would say 3 of those I would be happy with in Joseph, Mike Smith, and Wade Phillips. The other two especially "Wink" as we have already seen him as our DC and it was not pretty.

Couple of other pieces of news. Down at the Pro Bowl Chris Harris is actually working hard to get Rod Woodson as our next Secondary coach. He is one of the few players that I think could make a very good coach. He came in this past season as an intern and many say he was huge in the development of Bradley Roby. If you remember at the beginning of training camp he was getting used and abused left and right. By the time the season started though he looked pretty good and ended up being one of the better rookie corners in the league.

Last piece of info that could be huge...Bill Kollar is now our DL coach. He was the DL coach for Houston and is credited with the development of JJ Watt to what he is today. By most in the NFL he is considered one of the Elite DL coaches. Thankfully his grandsons live in Denver and he wanted to be closer to them so asked for his release. This should be huge for our guys up front.

 

[Broncosr0k]

I am not sure Mike Smith would be great considering the Falcons D over the past few years.

I also worry about Wade Phillips because he is a 3-4 guy. I have nothing against the 3-4 but I know the transition can be painful and finding a good NT is difficult. I have heard many arguments made that we have the personnel but I am still a little worried about that.

If we don't have the personnel and still switch to the 3-4 we have just declared SB is not in the Manning-era picture, which would make all of this for nought.

 

[WalkerBoh]

I am not sure Mike Smith would be great considering the Falcons D over the past few years.

I also worry about Wade Phillips because he is a 3-4 guy. I have nothing against the 3-4 but I know the transition can be painful and finding a good NT is difficult. I have heard many arguments made that we have the personnel but I am still a little worried about that.

If we don't have the personnel and still switch to the 3-4 we have just declared SB is not in the Manning-era picture, which would make all of this for nought.

Weren't we already using a "hybrid" defense? One that mixed in 4-3 and 3-4?

 

[Broncosr0k]

Weren't we already using a "hybrid" defense? One that mixed in 4-3 and 3-4?

Yes, not sure the specifics of how often we did one vs the other. The horror stories about switching over just make me cringe. Didn't we try switching several years ago with disaster?

 

[TDs3nOut]

Yes, not sure the specifics of how often we did one vs the other. The horror stories about switching over just make me cringe. Didn't we try switching several years ago with disaster?

Yep. Pretty sure it was during the McDaniels era (a.k.a., the Dark Age) that we switched to a 3-4 base D.