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Brad Richards signs with NYR
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Cbrower91
Donkey Bonker
Cap circumventing
to be honest the cap tricks are brilliant. Franzen at 4M and zetterberg at 6. keith at 5.6 and Hossa at 5.3. Pronger at 4.9. Savard at 4M.
there is a reason why boston, philly, detroit, and chicago have been the legit contenders the last few years and it's largely because they play the cap skillfully. Will it hurt 3 or 4 years from now? Maybe. But if the players retire, then it doesnt hurt at all! (see rafalski...). That's why the deals have all the money up front, becasue the GM's and players fully expect the player to retire and forego the last several years of the deal, thus providing cap relief for the team while still giving the player his due money.
It's an obvious trick and if dougie were willing to do it, then I would guess we would already have a cup. Why not sign jumbo 2 years ago to a 10 year, 50M deal at age 30.pay him 8 for the first 3 years, then 5 for the next 3, then trickle it down to have the last few years at 750k. Do something similar with patty and the sharks would have 5 or 6M more in cap space right now. Then, they both retire at age 38 with 2 or 3 years remaining and its no problem.
I think dougie's irrational fear of playing the game is, at least partially, why we dont have a cup and the wings and hawks do. Its risky a bit (see dipietro), but it's such a clear and obvious strategy to me to get around the cap and with minimal risk since retirement lets you out of the years of the deal that would actually hurt the team.
there is a reason why boston, philly, detroit, and chicago have been the legit contenders the last few years and it's largely because they play the cap skillfully. Will it hurt 3 or 4 years from now? Maybe. But if the players retire, then it doesnt hurt at all! (see rafalski...). That's why the deals have all the money up front, becasue the GM's and players fully expect the player to retire and forego the last several years of the deal, thus providing cap relief for the team while still giving the player his due money.
It's an obvious trick and if dougie were willing to do it, then I would guess we would already have a cup. Why not sign jumbo 2 years ago to a 10 year, 50M deal at age 30.pay him 8 for the first 3 years, then 5 for the next 3, then trickle it down to have the last few years at 750k. Do something similar with patty and the sharks would have 5 or 6M more in cap space right now. Then, they both retire at age 38 with 2 or 3 years remaining and its no problem.
I think dougie's irrational fear of playing the game is, at least partially, why we dont have a cup and the wings and hawks do. Its risky a bit (see dipietro), but it's such a clear and obvious strategy to me to get around the cap and with minimal risk since retirement lets you out of the years of the deal that would actually hurt the team.
filosofy29
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Philly still hasn't won a cup and had to sell off two of their marquee players (who they made long term deals to) to get a goalie. The Blackhawks won a cup before making those (except for Hossa) types of contracts. As for Boston, they don't really have any contracts that could be considered cap circumvention type of contracts except for Savard.....and he didn't really help them win a cup.
So of the teams you listed above, only Detroit (and to a lesser extent unless they win some in the future which they very well could) has been helped by the cap circumventing contracts as far as ultimate goals go (i.e. - the Stanley Cup).
yes, savard didnt help them win, but had they signed him to a shorter deal, he would have cost at least 6 or 7M, and then boston wouldnt have afforded their team. Philly didnt HAVE to sell off those guys. they chose to and then gave similar money to jagr and talbot as they gave to richards. Doesnt make much sense to me, but they chose it. Hossa's deal clearly allowed chicago to win a cup as they were right up to the cap, and would have 2 or 3M less available for last year and now as well. Obviously, NJ had a god awful year last year, but they still got kovy for 6M, which gave them far more flexibility.
I just dont see a huge downside as long as actually money doesnt matter (i.e: ownership doesnt mind if actual salaries exceed the cap). Have an unspoken gentlemen's agreement about a target retirement age and go for it! What's the big downside, particularly if its a 'franchise' player who you know you dont plan on dealing? Look at ehrhoff. he gets a huge money in the first 2 years, then it trickles off, but the last few years, he'll be approaching 40. so we know he isnt gunna play until then. It's a win-win. Ehrhoff gets rich, and his cap hit is rediculously low and will go away when he isnt worth it anymore.
lastly, I would argue that although some cap tricks havent resulted in cups, They have given their teams a better chance to win it. No way philly makes the SC final without pronger, and no way they get pronger for under 5M if its just a 2, 3, or 4 year deal. Likely chicago doesnt win the cup without hossa and no way they could afford hossa for over 7M, which is what he would have gotten on the open market when he was signed.
if it wasnt a good strategy, then holland and lamierello (the two best GM's in the league hands down) wouldnt have done it.
filosofy29
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Lou Lamouriello said he didn't want to do the signing. Mgmt forced his hand. I'm not saying these deals are bad. I'm just saying that the teams you brought up, only Detroit (and Chi.) Had great success using them. All I'm saying is, we haven't seen how these deals will play out long term, that's all.
Cmon_WTF
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For the cap circumvention contrats to be attractive to players they have to be grossly front loaded. Just from observation and a few comments made by Wilson this appears to be something the organization is fundimentally against. Dispite their average cap hit being close to the max the total actual salary they pay out is less. Wilson and the organization want contracts to be close to, if not below, the cap hit.
you're definitely right there. We've only seen the first few years of those deals, and who knows 5 years from now, but I don't foresee that being so bad as we've already started seeing retirements saving tons of cap space as would be predicted.
Hopefully when they re-do the cap, they will eliminate this loophole and the 'bury in the minors' one as well. If you want to keep salaries fair and eliminate the cap tricks, all they have to do is count the cap hit against the team no matter what (retirement, injury, or demotion). They could have a caveat for injury and retirement specifically for players over 35 or for deals beyond 4 years. In other words, if a 28 year old gets hurt, you can have the cap relief of LTIR, and if a 35+ player gets hurt, then you get the LTIR relief only if the player is in the 1-4th years of the current contract. In other words, if hossa gets hurt or retires at age 36, the whole rest of the deal would still count against the cap, but if handzus gets hurt and retires before the 2nd year, he'll be 35, but its only the 2nd year of the deal, so the sharks would get the cap hit removed.
Furthermore, if the player doesnt retire or get hurt, then all 1-way deals should count against the cap no matter what (i.e. no redden, souray, kotalik type dodges).
The whole point would be to remove the crazy long, front loaded deals. I truly believe that teams would not make those deals if they knew 100% that the cap hit would exist for the life of the deal, and if they still chose to make that contract, then so be it.
Right. So you think the sharks management doesnt want to pay the money? That's the only reason I can think of not to do it. The front loading followed by retirement has functionally made the cap upward of 75M. Here a few of last year's actual salaries (the cap was 59M or so...)
vancouver: roughly 71M (12 million more than cap!)
washington 68.4
Pitt: 67.7
calgary 66.3
boston 64.8
NYR: 64.6
DET: 64.3
...
SJS was 11th at 62.3M.
(lowest, by the way, was NYI at roughly 29M, well below the cap floor).
Not surprising that two of the top 5 teams in actual salary were in the finals. Also chicago was 4th in actual salary in 09-10 when they won (the sharks 10th). Maybe the sharks management not wanting to actually spend that much is the reason. If so, then Dougie clearly gets a pass, but otherwise, dougie is functionally choosing not to spend available money.
Seabrook, Keith, and hossa get a combined 22.9M next year yet have a total cap hit of 16.6M. That's over 6M of free cap space compared to salary. What a huge advantage that gives them over the sharks to build their team.
Bieksa and Luongo combine for roughly 14M in salary and just 10M on the cap. That allows vancouver to resign higgins (or salo) and add sturm, basically solidifying their third line or defense. That's a massive help.
Imagine if the sharks suddenly got 4 or 5M more on the cap through salary manipulation of jumbo and patty. That's enough easily to keep white, or add a top 6 forward. In fact, with a deal like richards got, the sharks could have him too. What a huge difference it would be to have richards in the lineup next year. It would cost ownership a lot since patty and jumbo would probably need to be paid 9M each to make such a deal work, but if dougie wants to win before the window closes, then being able to add guys like richards would be nice.
Bieksa and Luongo combine for roughly 14M in salary and just 10M on the cap. That allows vancouver to resign higgins (or salo) and add sturm, basically solidifying their third line or defense. That's a massive help.
Imagine if the sharks suddenly got 4 or 5M more on the cap through salary manipulation of jumbo and patty. That's enough easily to keep white, or add a top 6 forward. In fact, with a deal like richards got, the sharks could have him too. What a huge difference it would be to have richards in the lineup next year. It would cost ownership a lot since patty and jumbo would probably need to be paid 9M each to make such a deal work, but if dougie wants to win before the window closes, then being able to add guys like richards would be nice.
SJVP408
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Good points if your numbers are correct. The worst part of those contracts is if the athlete decides to play till his late 30's regardless of his low actual pay. But if there is a pre-negotiated agreement to retire at a certain time prior to the contract expiring, that's bonus cap space.
