Game Thread: Bengals vs Chiefs pre-season game 2

[Cincyfan78]

Also, whiffed sack attempt led to 1st down pass.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Andre Smith sighting.

At RT.

 

[Cincyfan78]

AJ

INT

Things are going very well tonight.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Very next play...TD.

WR was WIDE OPEN. Again.

 

[cincygrad]

With the caveat that this is preseason.......

This team has the exact same issues as the 2016 version. The schedule is easier, but is there any other reason to expect success? Slow on the defensive front, some comically bad back-up corners (Dennard), inability to get off the field on 3rd down and a weak offensive line. At least we have kickers that aren't shitting their pants.

I expect that the D will be better than what they've shown this preseason, but this team has the makings of a group of talented skill players without a solid core. Feels a lot like those Palmer teams in 2006 and 2007.

 

[Cincyfan78]

With the caveat that this is preseason.......

This team has the exact same issues as the 2016 version. The schedule is easier, but is there any other reason to expect success? Slow on the defensive front, some comically bad back-up corners (Dennard), inability to get off the field on 3rd down and a weak offensive line. At least we have kickers that aren't shitting their pants.

I expect that the D will be better than what they've shown this preseason, but this team has the makings of a group of talented skill players without a solid core. Feels a lot like those Palmer teams in 2006 and 2007.

I'll argue they are not slower by any means. They do look faster, but the problem that is really killing them on 1st and 2nd downs is their inability (or refusal) to simply wrap up and tackle the ball carrier/WR on the first attempt. We've seen multiple plays that should have been 1 or 2 yard gains, or even losses, turn into 5-6-7 or more yard gains as the first and second guy fail to bring the carrier to the ground.

What also concerns me on the defense is more that the starting DT's are getting little to no push up front. The DE's are bringing decent edge pressure at times, and the DT's are simply pushed right out of their lanes, opening up huge holes for the QB to step up and complete passes or simply run for big gains. A huge lack of gap control up front.

Dennard looks like a guy who has barely played football in 3 years. WJIII looks pretty decent. Having Kirkpatrick and Jones should help as well as Iloka, but it won't matter if the front 7 can't contain or get any real pressure. No matter how good your CB's are, you can't cover any WR for 5-6-7 seconds.

Offensively, the WR's look better than advertised. Erickson continues to make plays, and Malone looks very polished compared to some reports. He's making tough catches. The OL hasn't been a shit-fest, and that is a positive, and as long as they can be competent and everyone stays relatively Healthy (Looking at you Eifert), the offense is poised to score points despite the lack of points thus far.

 

[cincygrad]

I'll argue they are not slower by any means. They do look faster, but the problem that is really killing them on 1st and 2nd downs is their inability (or refusal) to simply wrap up and tackle the ball carrier/WR on the first attempt. We've seen multiple plays that should have been 1 or 2 yard gains, or even losses, turn into 5-6-7 or more yard gains as the first and second guy fail to bring the carrier to the ground.

What also concerns me on the defense is more that the starting DT's are getting little to no push up front. The DE's are bringing decent edge pressure at times, and the DT's are simply pushed right out of their lanes, opening up huge holes for the QB to step up and complete passes or simply run for big gains. A huge lack of gap control up front.

Dennard looks like a guy who has barely played football in 3 years. WJIII looks pretty decent. Having Kirkpatrick and Jones should help as well as Iloka, but it won't matter if the front 7 can't contain or get any real pressure. No matter how good your CB's are, you can't cover any WR for 5-6-7 seconds.

Offensively, the WR's look better than advertised. Erickson continues to make plays, and Malone looks very polished compared to some reports. He's making tough catches. The OL hasn't been a shit-fest, and that is a positive, and as long as they can be competent and everyone stays relatively Healthy (Looking at you Eifert), the offense is poised to score points despite the lack of points thus far.

This is the problem. I'd be interested to see Dalton's 3rd down and red zone % over the years and I'd also be curious to see if it was better when Hue was around. It seems like we have too much talent on the edge to struggle so much on 3rd downs and red zones, but it killed us last year and it looks shaky this preseason.

 

[Cincyfan78]

This is the problem. I'd be interested to see Dalton's 3rd down and red zone % over the years and I'd also be curious to see if it was better when Hue was around. It seems like we have too much talent on the edge to struggle so much on 3rd downs and red zones, but it killed us last year and it looks shaky this preseason.

Last year he was: 93/158 for 58.9% with 7 TD's and 2 INT's. QB rating of 90.3 on 3rd down. When you consider no Eifert and mostly no AJ, or Gio out of the backfield, not too terrible.

In 2015: 59/94 for 62.8% with 6 TD's and 4 IN. QB rating of 96.4. Mostly had a healthy Eifert and AJ and Gio out of the backfield.

Last year in the Redzone, Dalton was 30/57 for 51.39% with 13 TD's and amazingly, 0 INT's. QB Rating of 104.3, which was 10th in the league despite the low completion %. They scored a TD on 53% of their redzone trips, compared to 65% in 2015 with Eifert.

In 2015, the completiong % in the Redzone for Dalton was at 53.5%, but with a healthy Eifert, he threw 19 TD's to just 3 INT's.


Again, the talent is there. They can, and have scored. But, like any other team with big time players, if guys like AJ and Eifert go down, they are going to struggle because the offense relies on them, Dalton relies on them. There's no mistake that he's not Brady with the ability to plug and play at WR and scheme. He's a rhythm QB, and needs to be comfortable. Beating a dead horse with the health of guys like Gio and Eieft, but it is what it is. We all know if they are not healthy, the offense will struggle to score with a lack of proven depth on the roster at WR and TE, and especially struggle in the Red Zone to score TD's.

 

[cincygrad]

I suppose we can hope that Mixon helps solve some of the problems as well. Either through the pass or run. I think he has rare talent - But he needs to be used.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I suppose we can hope that Mixon helps solve some of the problems as well. Either through the pass or run. I think he has rare talent - But he needs to be used.

Agreed.

I think 3rd down success has been hampered by 1st and 2nd down issues in the run game. When you are facing 3rd and 4+ multiple times instead of 3rd and 1 or 2, it changes things as it nearly removes all threat to run the ball. Especially when you consider how poorly this team was running the ball to begin with.

 

[redskin4209]

I suppose we can hope that Mixon helps solve some of the problems as well. Either through the pass or run. I think he has rare talent - But he needs to be used.

Look guy Mixon cannot help the Bengals, so trade him to my Skins

 

[DanBengalfan]

he's going to get 200 yards against crappy teams.

he'll get 10-30 yards agains good teams because our OL will implode.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Even if the OL isn't crappy, he'll struggle. He doesn't do well running out of the spread offense and single RB set. I don't think it's any coincidence that his best year (rookie) they ran almost exclusively out of the "I" formation, which is what led them to re-sign Hewitt at FB. After that year, Jackson went with a more spread attack, and Hill has struggled to adapt to not having a FB at all times to follow. His vision is sub-par, and he consistently misses open lanes, while waiting for others to open up. That hesitation is killing him behind the LOS and hurting him even when he does hit an open hole.

One of the radio interviews I heard this off-season was from a guy at PFF or some other site, and they said that while the OL was graded poorly at running the ball, at lot of that also fell on the RB because Hill consistently missed open holes, and failed to take advantage of long runs available to him when he did hit the hole. His tentativeness cost him a lot of big gains, even on his "good" runs. I think it's one reason why Burkhead did such a seemingly better job when in there. Dude just got the ball and ran with it.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Even if the OL isn't crappy, he'll struggle. He doesn't do well running out of the spread offense and single RB set. I don't think it's any coincidence that his best year (rookie) they ran almost exclusively out of the "I" formation, which is what led them to re-sign Hewitt at FB. After that year, Jackson went with a more spread attack, and Hill has struggled to adapt to not having a FB at all times to follow. His vision is sub-par, and he consistently misses open lanes, while waiting for others to open up. That hesitation is killing him behind the LOS and hurting him even when he does hit an open hole.

One of the radio interviews I heard this off-season was from a guy at PFF or some other site, and they said that while the OL was graded poorly at running the ball, at lot of that also fell on the RB because Hill consistently missed open holes, and failed to take advantage of long runs available to him when he did hit the hole. His tentativeness cost him a lot of big gains, even on his "good" runs. I think it's one reason why Burkhead did such a seemingly better job when in there. Dude just got the ball and ran with it.

I think he was referring to Mixon there on the 200 against crappy teams and 20 yards against good teams because our OL sucks.

 

[cincygrad]

Even if the OL isn't crappy, he'll struggle. He doesn't do well running out of the spread offense and single RB set. I don't think it's any coincidence that his best year (rookie) they ran almost exclusively out of the "I" formation, which is what led them to re-sign Hewitt at FB. After that year, Jackson went with a more spread attack, and Hill has struggled to adapt to not having a FB at all times to follow. His vision is sub-par, and he consistently misses open lanes, while waiting for others to open up. That hesitation is killing him behind the LOS and hurting him even when he does hit an open hole.

One of the radio interviews I heard this off-season was from a guy at PFF or some other site, and they said that while the OL was graded poorly at running the ball, at lot of that also fell on the RB because Hill consistently missed open holes, and failed to take advantage of long runs available to him when he did hit the hole. His tentativeness cost him a lot of big gains, even on his "good" runs. I think it's one reason why Burkhead did such a seemingly better job when in there. Dude just got the ball and ran with it.

It's probably even easier than what formation he ran in..... Basically, Hill sucks because he can't play the Browns every week. Between 1/5 and 1/4 of his career rushing yards have come against the Browns. I think we all just overrated him after he broke off some long runs his rookie year. Aside from those long runs and dominant games against the Browns, he's basically sucked.... And he's the primary reason why we lost in the playoffs 2 years ago. Fuck Jeremy Hill.

 

[Cincyfan78]

It's probably even easier than what formation he ran in..... Basically, Hill sucks because he can't play the Browns every week. Between 1/5 and 1/4 of his career rushing yards have come against the Browns. I think we all just overrated him after he broke off some long runs his rookie year. Aside from those long runs and dominant games against the Browns, he's basically sucked.... And he's the primary reason why we lost in the playoffs 2 years ago. Fuck Jeremy Hill.

Rookie year:

100 yards against Pitt.
147 yards against Den.
148 yards against Cle.
87 yards against Hou.
152 yards against NO
154 yards against Jax
74 yards against Atl.

The other 7 games he failed to break double digit carries for one reason or another.

His rookie year was very good. Not just because of Cleveland. You don't run for over 1,100 yards just on the strength of 2 games against them a year (Ok, you COULD, but in this instance he did not).

As for the playoff loss? Gio doesn't fumble against SD, I still say they win that game. As for Pitt...maybe. Of course, if Adam and Burfict don't go thug-life on everyone, that FG is out of range.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Rookie year:

100 yards against Pitt.
147 yards against Den.
148 yards against Cle.
87 yards against Hou.
152 yards against NO
154 yards against Jax
74 yards against Atl.

The other 7 games he failed to break double digit carries for one reason or another.

His rookie year was very good. Not just because of Cleveland. You don't run for over 1,100 yards just on the strength of 2 games against them a year (Ok, you COULD, but in this instance he did not).

As for the playoff loss? Gio doesn't fumble against SD, I still say they win that game. As for Pitt...maybe. Of course, if Adam and Burfict don't go thug-life on everyone, that FG is out of range.

Once again, I think he was referring to Jeremy Hill AFTER his rookie year.

In 2015 and 2016 Hill ran for a total of 1633 yards. 429 of those were against Cleveland in just 4 of the 32 games.

Against Cleveland: 71 carries for 429 yards and a 6.04 per carry average (107.25 yards per game)
Against everyone else: 374 carries for 1204 yards and a 3.2 per carry average (43 yards per game)

It is safe to say, in the last couple years, Cleveland is what kept him a starting NFL running back.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Once again, I think he was referring to Jeremy Hill AFTER his rookie year.

In 2015 and 2016 Hill ran for a total of 1633 yards. 429 of those were against Cleveland in just 4 of the 32 games.

Against Cleveland: 71 carries for 429 yards and a 6.04 per carry average (107.25 yards per game)
Against everyone else: 374 carries for 1204 yards and a 3.2 per carry average (43 yards per game)

It is safe to say, in the last couple years, Cleveland is what kept him a starting NFL running back.

My point was, the scheme around Hill changed AFTER his rookie year. He said it probably wasn't the scheme, but Cleveland. I countered that the only year they focused on the "I" for him, he didn't just go off on Cleveland, but quite a few teams. Did not have less than 75 yards in any game he got double digit carries, if I remember correctly.

They did a ton of "I" formations his rookie year. This is why the re-signed Hewitt. Then they really went into more of a spread the following year. So, Hill wasn't just getting fat his rookie year on Cleveland, as suggested. The style helped, IMO.

He got the ball already on the run, and followed his lead back. It's what he's best at. You asking to take the handoff from a spread set in the backfield before getting up to speed, and then asking him to use his vision to make the best cut clearly slows him down. It's not what he does, or his style of running.

Now, yes, after his rookie year, Cleveland kept him afloat. No question about that, but at that point they were no longer running him out of an "I" as much as they did his rookie year.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

My point was, the scheme around Hill changed AFTER his rookie year. He said it probably wasn't the scheme, but Cleveland. I countered that the only year they focused on the "I" for him, he didn't just go off on Cleveland, but quite a few teams. Did not have less than 75 yards in any game he got double digit carries, if I remember correctly.

They did a ton of "I" formations his rookie year. This is why the re-signed Hewitt. Then they really went into more of a spread the following year. So, Hill wasn't just getting fat his rookie year on Cleveland, as suggested. The style helped, IMO.

He got the ball already on the run, and followed his lead back. It's what he's best at. You asking to take the handoff from a spread set in the backfield before getting up to speed, and then asking him to use his vision to make the best cut clearly slows him down. It's not what he does, or his style of running.

Now, yes, after his rookie year, Cleveland kept him afloat. No question about that, but at that point they were no longer running him out of an "I" as much as they did his rookie year.

I agree with that, but I just think with this offensive line by running I formation, it just stacks the box that much more and we will be going no where anyways.

We need a back that is strong, elusive and has good vision. Mixon is more than than Hill now. Mixon gives us the best chance to win this year with our current personnel.

I like Mixon and Bernard in the backfield together because both can run, both can catch and both are decent blockers. That actually helps Dalton and the OL, and it gives Zampese more flexibility on the play call with the same personnel on the field.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I agree with that, but I just think with this offensive line by running I formation, it just stacks the box that much more and we will be going no where anyways.

We need a back that is strong, elusive and has good vision. Mixon is more than than Hill now. Mixon gives us the best chance to win this year with our current personnel.

I like Mixon and Bernard in the backfield together because both can run, both can catch and both are decent blockers. That actually helps Dalton and the OL, and it gives Zampese more flexibility on the play call with the same personnel on the field.

Correct. Also, at the time, going to the 3 WR sets allowed for Green, Jones, and Sanu to all be on the field at the same time with Eifert at TE. It creates more mis-matches.

As for stacking the box....it only works if you can't take advantage of the outside coverage with Green 1-1 or even with Eifert exploiting the gaps left over the middle. I think Dalton could do that, but it's easier to try and create more space.

As we've all stated, Hill is a solid power back, but with the move to a spread without a FB to lead, he's not as decisive and it's killing him in the backfield and at the LOS hitting holes. He simply doesn't have the confidence in his vision and ability to get the ball and go like he did with a lead FB.