Award voting

[obxyankeefan]

No, I meant make the argument that he was the reason for the improvement, not that the Mets offense improved and that it coincided with his arrival. How did he single handedly make the Mets' offense "different"?

I am good with Numbers if you want to get me in an argument I will lose because read my signature.

I think he made a difference, but how much IDK.

 

[ericd7633]

American League

MVP
1. Josh Donaldson
2. Mike Trout
3. Manny Machado
4. Jose Bautista
5. Edwin Encarnacion
6. Lorenzo Cain
7. Prince Fielder
8. Chris Davis
9. Nelson Cruz
10. Adrian Beltre

Cy Young
1. Dallas Keuchel
2. David Price
3. Sonny Gray
4. Felix Hernandez
5. Collin McHugh

Rookie of the Year
1. Carlos Correa
2. Francisco Lindor
3. Billy Burns

==========================


National League

MVP
1. Bryce Harper
2. Paul Goldschmidt
3. Nolan Arenado
4. Antony Rizzo
5. Jake Arrieta
6. Joey Votto
7. Zack Greinke
8. Andrew McCutchen
9. Clayton Kershaw
10. Matt Carpenter

Cy Young
1. Zack Greinke
2. Jake Arrieta
3. Clayton Kershaw
4. Max Scherzer
5. Gerritt Cole

Rookie of the Year
1. Kris Bryant
2. Matt Duffy
3. Jo Hung Kang

 

[DragonfromTO]

I am good with Numbers if you want to get me in an argument I will lose because read my signature.

I think he made a difference, but how much IDK.

I think that the effect (if it's actually there) should be able to be shown at least a little bit with numbers, you just might have to dig a little.

Here's something else... Kelly Johnson and Juan Uribe arrived at pretty much the same time as Cespedes. If what we're talking about here is improving the offense of the rest of the lineup (rather than the player's individual performance improving the lineup), how do we know that it wasn't Kelly Johnson's presence that created the effect? Or Uribe's. Or maybe John Mayberry Jr.'s departure was the catalyst. Or do we just assume that it was Cespedes and give him all of the credit for those intangibles because he had the largest tangible impact of the three?

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think that the effect (if it's actually there) should be able to be shown at least a little bit with numbers, you just might have to dig a little.

Here's something else... Kelly Johnson and Juan Uribe arrived at pretty much the same time as Cespedes. If what we're talking about here is improving the offense of the rest of the lineup (rather than the player's individual performance improving the lineup), how do we know that it wasn't Kelly Johnson's presence that created the effect? Or Uribe's. Or maybe John Mayberry Jr.'s departure was the catalyst. Or do we just assume that it was Cespedes and give him all of the credit for those intangibles because he had the largest tangible impact of the three?

And I'm sorry if I sound like a dick obxyankeefan, that's not my intention. But I remember this argument back when Jayson Stark was trying to tell us that Shannon Stewart was the MVP. It was silly then and I'd have to see some kind of real evidence to think it's not silly now.

 

[navamind]

This was also the argument with Manny Ramirez back in 2008, and that was with him batting .396/.489/.743 (221 OPS+) for the Dodgers. The NL MVP coincidentally went to someone on a non-playoff team (Pujols).

 

[obxyankeefan]

And I'm sorry if I sound like a dick obxyankeefan, that's not my intention. But I remember this argument back when Jayson Stark was trying to tell us that Shannon Stewart was the MVP. It was silly then and I'd have to see some kind of real evidence to think it's not silly now.

I am fine with anything you have said so far.I enjoy reading these threads and will put my opinion in them from time to time, but am not big on fighting for my opinion. If you disagree, you disagree as far as I am concerned.

I have been looking at the raw numbers and Cespedes tailed off at the end. If we take his 57 games with the Mets and multiple everything by 3 (because I don't want to use 2.97) he would have had 117 runs, 105 EBH, and 132 RBIs. If you add those numbers to any offense that offense is going to improve.

 

[DragonfromTO]

This was also the argument with Manny Ramirez back in 2008, and that was with him batting .396/.489/.743 (221 OPS+) for the Dodgers.

I don't really recall but I don't think people were trying to give Manny credit for indirect effects on the rest of the lineup though, I think the argument was that he was so good at just the right times that his actual tangible contributions were more "valuable" than anyone else's full season. That's a bit of a silly argument too I think, but it's a little different one

 

[DragonfromTO]

I found the Jayson Stark/Shannon Stewart piece I was talking about, if anyone wants a blast from the past.

And the winner is ...

 

[obxyankeefan]

I found the Jayson Stark/Shannon Stewart piece I was talking about, if anyone wants a blast from the past.

And the winner is ...

Thanks TO. Now I am going to go and hang my head, because what Jayson was saying about Shannon is what I was trying to say about Cespedes.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Thanks TO. Now I am going to go and hang my head, because what Jayson was saying about Shannon is what I was trying to say about Cespedes.

Well, Cespedes' tangible contributions were greater than Stewart's were at least. If he'd spent a full season with the Mets and put up a .287/.337/.604 line over 160 games he'd be a legit (still non-winning) candidate

 

[obxyankeefan]

IMO for a player to change leagues in the middle of the season and still win the MVP he would have to make a difference like Cespedes did on the Mets offense and the teams W/L per. He would also have to put up Nintendo number over the last two monthes. Cespedes did the first two, but was unable to maintain the numbers he was putting up. That is why I didn't vote for him, but I have less problems with someone putting him on their list than someone leaving Rizzo off.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Thanks TO. Now I am going to go and hang my head, because what Jayson was saying about Shannon is what I was trying to say about Cespedes.

Now you see why I recognized it
I remember a lot of dumb baseball shit, and who Jayson Stark thought was the MVP 12 years ago definitely qualifies as "dumb baseball shit"

 

[StanMarsh51]

The Mets offense was anemic before they added Cespedes. Couldnt the argument be made that adding his bat to the lineup allowed everyone else to excel?

At the same time, it could be argued that the Mets lineup faced a weak crop of pitching staffs (on the whole) the final two months of the season...

In the last 59 games of the season (when Cespedes was on the team), 37 of them were against teams ranked 20th or worse in the majors in ERA+ (with 21 of those games vs teams ranked 25th or worse).

Only 16 of those 59 games were vs teams in the top half in the majors in ERA+.

 

[calsnowskier]

Goldy is 8th? Wow

1 - Harper - Enough said.
2 - Cespedes - May not be popular, but like I stated, MVP is not 100% numbers IMHO.
3 - Rizzo - AT LEAST comparable numbers to Goldy, but on a PO team
4 - McCutchen - Undeniable leader on a PO team. He also plays a key defensive position at a ++ level.
5 - Arenado - Hands down best defensive 3B in the game and put up monster offensive numbers (even after normalization for park effects)
6 - Posey - Undeniable leader while playing THE most demanding position at a ++ level.
7 - Votto - AT LEAST as dominating numbers as Goldy.

So, yeah. Goldy at #8.

Would I rather have Goldy on my team than Votto moving forward? Yup. Would I rather have Goldy on my team than Rizzo moving forward? Not sure. That's a tough one. But Rizzo was the offensive leader on a PO team.

 

[obxyankeefan]

last day if anyone else wants to vote

 

[obxyankeefan]

Only five people voted (Calsnowskier, Darkstone, Ericd7633, Navamind, and me) but I will post the results up here. One at a time starting with ROY, than Cy Young, and finally MVP. They will be listed as PLAYER POINTS First Place Vote.

 

[obxyankeefan]

AL ROY:

Carlos Correa 14 (4)
Francisco Lindor 11 (1)
Delino DeShields 2
Billy Burns 1
Lance McCullers 1
Miguel Sano 1

 

[obxyankeefan]

NL ROY:

Kris Bryant 15 (5)
Matt Duffy 9
Jang Ho Kang 4
Noah Syndergaard 2

 

[obxyankeefan]

AL Cy Young:

Dallas Keuchel 23 (3)
David Price 22 (2)
Sonny Gray 13
Chris Sale 9
Chris Archer 4
Felix Hernandez 2
Marco Estrada 1
Colin Mchugh 1

 

[obxyankeefan]

NL Cy Young:

Zach Greinke 21 (3)
Clayton Kershaw 21 (2)
Jake Arrieta 18
Max Scherzer 7
Gerritt Cole 4
Madison Bumgarner 2
Jake DeGrom 2