Active hall of famers

[StanMarsh51]

Very under-rated... He still no HOFer in my book... Honestly, I have trouble analyzing the speed/power guys... I kind of disregard the speed when a player hits 30+ HRs... and if you take the speed away from Beltran he is still a very good player, but really nothing too special...

Overlooking the speed part of his game somewhat does a disservice to evaluating his defense, which was a big part of his career value up until his early to mid 30s. If he were an average corner outfielder with those numbers, I could see the knock on him, but he was a good defensive CF for a good decade with those offensive numbers.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Don't think Molina or Mauer are in sniffing distance of a hall call. If Votto has a few more seasons of anything resembling the quality of his 2015 he'd be in.

Kershaw's also a lock for me, too.

Like I said before, I'm not saying that he'll get voted in but I think a lot of people really underrate Mauer's candidacy.

Catcher JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[calsnowskier]

Because Posey will play the majority of his career at 1B and needs to be compared to other 1st basemen, which I don't think his numbers will stack up. If he plays the majority of his career at C, then his numbers will be fine and he probably will be a HOFer

Have you looked at his offensive splits based on position? He is a MUCH better hitter when he plays 1B.

Regardless of that, he will not make the 100% transition to 1B until 2018 at the earliest (baring injury, of course). That will give him at least 7+ seasons at C playing at an elite-HOF level. The level at which he has played and the resume he has put together ALREADY makes him a borderline HOFer.

This thread was started to list who is in the Hall RIGHT NOW based on their body of work SO FAR. To list Trout or Harper above Posey simply does not make sense. They are both studs, and may end up having better total careers than Posey. But to put them ahead of Posey TODAY is illogical.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Very under-rated... He still no HOFer in my book... Honestly, I have trouble analyzing the speed/power guys... I kind of disregard the speed when a player hits 30+ HRs... and if you take the speed away from Beltran he is still a very good player, but really nothing too special...

Why? I think that is a huge mistake. I mean, does speed stop having value to a team once a guy hits too many HRs?

 

[DHoey]

Have you looked at his offensive splits based on position? He is a MUCH better hitter when he plays 1B.

Regardless of that, he will not make the 100% transition to 1B until 2018 at the earliest (baring injury, of course). That will give him at least 7+ seasons at C playing at an elite-HOF level. The level at which he has played and the resume he has put together ALREADY makes him a borderline HOFer.

This thread was started to list who is in the Hall RIGHT NOW based on their body of work SO FAR. To list Trout or Harper above Posey simply does not make sense. They are both studs, and may end up having better total careers than Posey. But to put them ahead of Posey TODAY is illogical.

My bad, I misunderstood the purpose of the thread. I thought it was a "who's playing right now that will be in the HOF".

My list would only include only Ichiro and Pujols.

I don't agree with this statement at all, "The level at which he has played and the resume he has put together ALREADY makes him a borderline HOFer"

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I don't agree with this statement at all, "The level at which he has played and the resume he has put together ALREADY makes him a borderline HOFer"

Agreed. If he breaks his legs off this offseason in, say, a ballet accident and never plays again, there would not be a discussion about him getting into Cooperstown. At least, not outside of SF.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Have you looked at his offensive splits based on position? He is a MUCH better hitter when he plays 1B.

Regardless of that, he will not make the 100% transition to 1B until 2018 at the earliest (baring injury, of course). That will give him at least 7+ seasons at C playing at an elite-HOF level. The level at which he has played and the resume he has put together ALREADY makes him a borderline HOFer.

This thread was started to list who is in the Hall RIGHT NOW based on their body of work SO FAR. To list Trout or Harper above Posey simply does not make sense. They are both studs, and may end up having better total careers than Posey. But to put them ahead of Posey TODAY is illogical.

I haven't looked closely into the numbers, but doesn't Belt sit quite a bit when facing lefty starters? That would possibly mean that Posey when playing 1B is getting a disproportionate amount of PAs vs lefties, which could inflate his 1B numbers since RH hitters generally hit better vs lefties.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Like I said before, I'm not saying that he'll get voted in but I think a lot of people really underrate Mauer's candidacy.

Catcher JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

JAWS is based solely on offence, though. Defensively, Mauer isn't anything special and that plays a big part for C's getting into the HOF to me. Gotta have both, which is why I'm even borderline on Piazza.

 

[The Derski]

Ichiro, Pujols, Carbrera

 

[MilkSpiller22]

JAWS is based solely on offence, though. Defensively, Mauer isn't anything special and that plays a big part for C's getting into the HOF to me. Gotta have both, which is why I'm even borderline on Piazza.

Not true!!! JAWS is just the average of your career WAR(includes dWAR) and your WAR7(includes dWAR)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Why? I think that is a huge mistake. I mean, does speed stop having value to a team once a guy hits too many HRs?

Its difficult... Once you are a 30+ HR guy, especially one who never had an OBP over 400, you are not a top of the order guy... Your role in the offense is to knock others in with your bat... If your strength is knocking players in, I am clearly going to factor that in over your ability to run...

When I said ignore, that was definitely the wrong word, but I definitely don't look at the speed of a power guy as much as I would a top of the order talent...

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Not true!!! JAWS is just the average of your career WAR(includes dWAR) and your WAR7(includes dWAR)

I misinterpreted.

But regardless, Mauer isn't a defensive standout at the position.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Its difficult... Once you are a 30+ HR guy, especially one who never had an OBP over 400, you are not a top of the order guy... Your role in the offense is to knock others in with your bat... If your strength is knocking players in, I am clearly going to factor that in over your ability to run...

When I said ignore, that was definitely the wrong word, but I definitely don't look at the speed of a power guy as much as I would a top of the order talent...

And this is how Jeff Bagwell gets left off of HoF ballots. I guess all of those runs he scored didn't count for the Astros, only the ones that he knocked in.

I apologize if that sounds overly snarky, that's not what I'm going for here. I know we have a couple of areas where we disagree but I don't think you don't understand baseball. You're smarter than this type of argument.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And this is how Jeff Bagwell gets left off of HoF ballots. I guess all of those runs he scored didn't count for the Astros, only the ones that he knocked in.

I apologize if that sounds overly snarky, that's not what I'm going for here. I know we have a couple of areas where we disagree but I don't think you don't understand baseball. You're smarter than this type of argument.

like i said, the word ignore was definitely wrong... I am really into lineup structure... When we talk about HOFers, one of the first things i do is ask where that players STATISTICS ideally put him in an ideal lineup...

Beltran i would say would be a # 5 hitter... then i compare him with other middle of the lineup guys, Speed is the LAST skill i care about for the middle of the lineup...

Bagwell, i do think should be in the HOF, but not because of his SBs...


Defense is very important as well, but i don't like combining my defensive analysis with my offense analysis... I do them separately and then combine the 2 different analysis... I don't reward a SS for being a power hitter or anything like that...

 

[DragonfromTO]

I misinterpreted.

But regardless, Mauer isn't a defensive standout at the position.

I don't know what the standard for "standout" is, but he was pretty good. Won 3 Gold Gloves, led the league in fielding percentage 3 times, led in CS% twice and was 33% for his career (average was 27%). Top 3 in the league in zone runs for five of his nine seasons.

Also, don't you kind of owe a new explanation for why JAWS overrates his candidacy if the one you gave isn't accurate and JAWS shows him as being right there?

 

[DragonfromTO]

like i said, the word ignore was definitely wrong... I am really into lineup structure... When we talk about HOFers, one of the first things i do is ask where that players STATISTICS ideally put him in an ideal lineup...

Beltran i would say would be a # 5 hitter... then i compare him with other middle of the lineup guys, Speed is the LAST skill i care about for the middle of the lineup...

Bagwell, i do think should be in the HOF, but not because of his SBs...


Defense is very important as well, but i don't like combining my defensive analysis with my offense analysis... I do them separately and then combine the 2 different analysis... I don't reward a SS for being a power hitter or anything like that...

I would probably be inclined to argue that base stealing is actually more valuable in the middle of the lineup than it is at the top. The batters that the leadoff hitter is on base for are generally more capable of knocking him in from first base than the bottom of the order guys that are up when the #5 batter is on base, so the marginal value of that stolen base would seem to be less.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would probably be inclined to argue that base stealing is actually more valuable in the middle of the lineup than it is at the top. The batters that the leadoff hitter is on base for are generally more capable of knocking him in from first base than the bottom of the order guys that are up when the #5 batter is on base, so the marginal value of that stolen base would seem to be less.

Well, yes and no... Speed will always make you more likely to score, but generally after the 5 hitter we are not talking about a good hitter... Chances are much more likely that they will not get that hit to score you... so you are really hoping that the base runner was able to get to 3rd before there is 2 outs... Which is a very low percentage.

A top of the order guy only has to move into scoring position, and the "BETTER" hitters will be able to get the baserunner home much more efficiently...

IMO, the trick in baseball is to maximize the abilities of your BEST players... And having men in running position for your Best hitters as often as possible is the way to do that...

 

[obxyankeefan]

So, Arod is a lock and Papi has no chance? I guess you don't think postseason accomplishments count for much?

The best postseason player of all time is not in. Don Larsen.

 

[molsaniceman]

The best postseason player of all time is not in. Don Larsen.

Wait i thought yankees considered pettitte the best

Im sure that 81 W 91 L has nothing to do with larsen not being in

 

[obxyankeefan]

Wait i thought yankees considered pettitte the best

Im sure that 81 W 91 L has nothing to do with larsen not being in

The point being that postseason alone does not get you into the HOF, as many Boston fans want to think with Ortiz. Jack Morris had some great postseason and some bad ones, but it was not enough to get him in.

Ortiz to the positive has 500 HRs, played most of his career on a high profile team, and his postseason helps.
To the negative he is indicted with steroids and was primarily a DH.

I don't have time right now to look at his stats.


IMHO Ortiz is borderline at best.