A Tough Question; Critically Thought Answers Only!

[MileHigh64]

If the national pundits consider the Raiders a contender to win the Super Bowl, then the Broncos should probably start making room in the trophy case for another Lombardi this year.

 

[Mingo]

When is IKno - going to tell us which posts met his standard as "critically well thought out" and which ones didn't?

I've got my own list.

 

[MileHigh64]

When is IKno - going to tell us which posts met his standard as "critically well thought out" and which ones didn't?

I've got my own list.

I'm quite confident that mine wouldn't make the cut with ikf.

 

[iknowftbll]

When is IKno - going to tell us which posts met his standard as "critically well thought out" and which ones didn't?

I've got my own list.

haha, my "standard" is probably not even as high as a lot of others' here. We really do have an absurdly intelligent core group here. What I didn't want to see was a whole bunch of "any season that doesn't result in a Super Bowl win is a failure" type answers. While that metric is the ultimate measure of success, seasons that fall short of that can still be deemed successful. And teams that look like they will fall short of that mark, say...during weeks 10-11 of the regular season, may get their ducks in a row in time for a playoff run. I am inclined to believe this Broncos team, while not a favorite from where we sit now, has the makeup of a team that can go on a run.

 

[Mingo]

haha, my "standard" is probably not even as high as a lot of others' here. We really do have an absurdly intelligent core group here. What I didn't want to see was a whole bunch of "any season that doesn't result in a Super Bowl win is a failure" type answers. While that metric is the ultimate measure of success, seasons that fall short of that can still be deemed successful. And teams that look like they will fall short of that mark, say...during weeks 10-11 of the regular season, may get their ducks in a row in time for a playoff run. I am inclined to believe this Broncos team, while not a favorite from where we sit now, has the makeup of a team that can go on a run.

You also know how to answer a question.

 

[58crash]

My deal is no different as last year . Last year they put Duct tape on the OL. It worked ...To this day I am still perplexed it worked .. we also stole a few players from this system from the past to help out ..

We are at a cross Roads . IMO we will fix the OL during the break our go down in a blaze rather fast in the next several games .

We are never seeing Alex Gibbs again(my heehawing is more a joke at this point . I still would like Elway to see Elway bend/listen/give full heed to Alex Gibbs on this years rule changes and honor the old fart by doing a Alex Gibbs week or month ) I know that ..But We do need a Change up in OL Coaches . Two years of this know matter how this turns out is IMO not acceptable .

Our OL Will make this year or break it .

 

[Broncosr0k]

"any season that doesn't result in a Super Bowl win is a failure"

I read that and instantly thought MasterAgain. I remember a few threads on CBSsports that ended up in a back and forth with that guy.

Typically my measure of success is something to the effect of "are you in it til the end?" If the team is competing for a playoff spot in week 17 and the SB in the postseason then I am pretty happy. I would hate to be a fan of the bears and browns. Season was over weeks ago.

 

[cdumler7]

I read that and instantly thought MasterAgain. I remember a few threads on CBSsports that ended up in a back and forth with that guy.

Typically my measure of success is something to the effect of "are you in it til the end?" If the team is competing for a playoff spot in week 17 and the SB in the postseason then I am pretty happy. I would hate to be a fan of the bears and browns. Season was over weeks ago.

That really is it of just being able to keep things in perspective. We have been spoiled as Bronco fans not only with a Super Bowl title last year but one of the most competitive teams in the league for the past what 30 years! We all demand a lot from the Broncos and they demand a lot of themselves. Part of the reason I love to support them just knowing how hard they work to put the best product on the field every week.

 

[BigKen]

I wanted to wait before I Chimed in.........................

Are the Broncos a Super Bowl Caliber team?

Special Teams..........................YES
Defense...................................YES
Offense....................................NO

If CJ was still playing he would help big time. From my point of view, Sanders and Thomas have slipped just a bit. I honestly believe that Manning literally "forced" them to excel. They both seem to be relying on their athleticism and experience and not working as hard as they did a year ago...........just my opinion.

 

[Broncosr0k]

I wanted to wait before I Chimed in.........................

Are the Broncos a Super Bowl Caliber team?

Special Teams..........................YES
Defense...................................YES
Offense....................................NO

I agree with the above part. You can win with 2 of 3 but I don't think those 2 are enough to overcome the offense. I think most of us thought that to repeat we would need better production from the offense and we haven't seen that.

If CJ was still playing he would help big time. From my point of view, Sanders and Thomas have slipped just a bit. I honestly believe that Manning literally "forced" them to excel. They both seem to be relying on their athleticism and experience and not working as hard as they did a year ago...........just my opinion.

CJ would probably help but part of the problem is the o-line is not very good. As for DT and Sanders, Siemian is no Manning. I think both are good receivers but either due to playcalling or QB decisions they have not been able to really flourish. And there may be something to Manning not demanding excellence from them. Each has a SB ring and Siemian does not command the team like Manning did. There may be a little fire and drive missing.

 

[MileHigh64]

I read that and instantly thought MasterAgain. I remember a few threads on CBSsports that ended up in a back and forth with that guy.

Typically my measure of success is something to the effect of "are you in it til the end?" If the team is competing for a playoff spot in week 17 and the SB in the postseason then I am pretty happy. I would hate to be a fan of the bears and browns. Season was over weeks ago.

MasterAgain thanks you for resurrecting his legend. Was always fun to read the back and forth between MA, Crispy, Morpheus and others. The good old days but back before the Broncos had won another championship. We're a mellower bunch now with the recent success of the past 3 years.

Now onto the topic at hand. The Broncos are of course capable of winning a Super Bowl this year. All one has to do is look back at 2015 for that answer. However, this fan thinks the odds of chasing that formula again are seriously going to be tough sledding. An improved AFCW, an O-line that can't get out of their own way and a first year QB that will continue to have his struggles. The season is certainly not a waste though. Not only will the Broncos have a strong transition year under their belts but they will have indoctrinated several promising rookies, all while remaining competitive throughout! Go Broncos!

 

[cdumler7]

I wanted to wait before I Chimed in.........................

Are the Broncos a Super Bowl Caliber team?

Special Teams..........................YES
Defense...................................YES
Offense....................................NO

If CJ was still playing he would help big time. From my point of view, Sanders and Thomas have slipped just a bit. I honestly believe that Manning literally "forced" them to excel. They both seem to be relying on their athleticism and experience and not working as hard as they did a year ago...........just my opinion.

That is just it though of every team having that one glaring weakness that you can point to if/when the season fails. With only one team emerging at the end just like last year Bronco fans could say we won even though our offense was terrible. For the Patriots that defense looks pretty suspect at times. They have an incredible offense that might be able to overcome that but we will have to see.

As for CJ remember he is the player the Broncos are most likely going to designate to return from IR. His plan (have to see if it happens) is to be back for week 17 against the Raiders. So the offense could get a nice boost.

I will disagree on Sanders and Thomas. Sanders honestly is getting open at an alarming rate. The issue is that Siemian struggles throwing to his right and to the middle of the field. His comfort zone is to that left side and with Sanders playing so much on the right side it just means he isn't getting the looks that he should. And Thomas has been hurt this year and will most likely get surgery as soon as the season ends. So I don't think it is an effort issue or not running good routes it is just that he struggles cutting off that right hip as much. It has felt better the last couple of weeks and the bye week should help it even more and we saw when he feels good what he can be this past weekend. He played more like a top-5 WR again. Just need to see that more consistently from him.

Honestly our offense has shown some signs of life at times. They are one of the youngest offenses in the NFL though so you have to expect inconsistencies. Just have to see what they are after the bye week.

 

[randymon]

That is just it though of every team having that one glaring weakness that you can point to if/when the season fails. With only one team emerging at the end just like last year Bronco fans could say we won even though our offense was terrible. For the Patriots that defense looks pretty suspect at times. They have an incredible offense that might be able to overcome that but we will have to see.

As for CJ remember he is the player the Broncos are most likely going to designate to return from IR. His plan (have to see if it happens) is to be back for week 17 against the Raiders. So the offense could get a nice boost.

I will disagree on Sanders and Thomas. Sanders honestly is getting open at an alarming rate. The issue is that Siemian struggles throwing to his right and to the middle of the field. His comfort zone is to that left side and with Sanders playing so much on the right side it just means he isn't getting the looks that he should. And Thomas has been hurt this year and will most likely get surgery as soon as the season ends. So I don't think it is an effort issue or not running good routes it is just that he struggles cutting off that right hip as much. It has felt better the last couple of weeks and the bye week should help it even more and we saw when he feels good what he can be this past weekend. He played more like a top-5 WR again. Just need to see that more consistently from him.

Honestly our offense has shown some signs of life at times. They are one of the youngest offenses in the NFL though so you have to expect inconsistencies. Just have to see what they are after the bye week.

I know you just refuse to give up on this O-line and understandable as a Bronco fan but sometimes you have to look at the glass half empty, not half full. When this line plays vs mediocre or less NFL defensive fronts and the run game does decent ( that would be like twice this season so far ) you get all giddy and throw your " just give them time to gel/ get healthy,etc analysis, but the fact you keep ignoring also is how outmanned, how brutally they get beaten by the teams with avg or above D fronts. Denver is stuck with what's on the menu for rest of season of course, but it's time to quit kidding yourself or trying to convince yourself that other than Paradis, this line is ...#1... Two tackles that have already had their best years and are in decline, total junk in Garcia and a couple guys that can't handle the toughness it takes to stay on the field because they get their butts handed to them and will always be behind in progression for those reasons. This team is not far from another SB in future but it's going to take a near total dismantling of this line and a sincere upgrade in talent on this line OR......scratch the z-blkg ( there's just not the athleticism in this group for that ) use fullback and TD powersweeps more,put Trevor anywhere except behind center and adjust to the players (O lines ) strengths, which isn't Z- blocking for Gods sake and get the most out of what they can do half decently and maybe, just maybe you can put some semblance of run game that will help the young Qb and defense out and have a realistic shot at repeating or have at least a nice push toward it. After season, it's time for a change in coaching on the O line also.

 

[cdumler7]

I know you just refuse to give up on this O-line and understandable as a Bronco fan but sometimes you have to look at the glass half empty, not half full. When this line plays vs mediocre or less NFL defensive fronts and the run game does decent ( that would be like twice this season so far ) you get all giddy and throw your " just give them time to gel/ get healthy,etc analysis, but the fact you keep ignoring also is how outmanned, how brutally they get beaten by the teams with avg or above D fronts. Denver is stuck with what's on the menu for rest of season of course, but it's time to quit kidding yourself or trying to convince yourself that other than Paradis, this line is ...#1... Two tackles that have already had their best years and are in decline, total junk in Garcia and a couple guys that can't handle the toughness it takes to stay on the field because they get their butts handed to them and will always be behind in progression for those reasons. This team is not far from another SB in future but it's going to take a near total dismantling of this line and a sincere upgrade in talent on this line OR......scratch the z-blkg ( there's just not the athleticism in this group for that ) use fullback and TD powersweeps more,put Trevor anywhere except behind center and adjust to the players (O lines ) strengths, which isn't Z- blocking for Gods sake and get the most out of what they can do half decently and maybe, just maybe you can put some semblance of run game that will help the young Qb and defense out and have a realistic shot at repeating or have at least a nice push toward it. After season, it's time for a change in coaching on the O line also.

See this is where 2 things are happening...You and I look at the game of football very differently. I don't just sit here and say hey this group stinks that must mean there is no talent and there is no fixing this unit. I'm one that just like I'm sure the coaches are doing right now look to see if there is anything they can be doing right now to just maybe make this group look decent. The second is you seem to struggle understanding some of the things I write about. I have never said this group looks incredible. I have said they have shown glimpses of promise and have had some games that leave me having some hope but never that they have arrived. I have said from the beginning that with 4 new starters it would be a work in progress and even if they were the most talented group assembled it would have been that way where what they looked like day 1 wouldn't be what they looked like in week 17.

So for me what I do is I try to take each player individually first and see what are their core issues? Is it that they are getting whooped when they are required to go one-on-one? Is it a strength issue? Is it a footwork issue? Then in the ZBS I look at are the struggling to know when to break off to the 2nd level? Are they struggling with communication with the guy next to them? Is there more to the problem than just that they are not talented?

Here is what I have seen so far...Russell Okung when he is on his game is one of the top-5 LT's in the game. I can promise you that plenty of actual OL that have played the game will tell you the exact same thing. His issue is that his technique severely falls off at times. He will just bear hug a guy to the ground. I would also say he has some conditioning issues as it does seem some of his biggest footwork issues happen in the 4th quarter.

He and Garcia have terrible communication is another issue. Teams seem to like to blitz right at Garcia and for some reason Okung or Garcia will pick up the wrong guy.

Garcia--He has terrible recognition. Teams love to run twists at him because he just doesn't seem to be able to recognize when they are doing that. He also struggles to recognize when teams run those inside blitzes. I would say talent wise he is the one that is struggling the most. If there is a player I would like to see the Broncos replace this would be the spot.

Paradis--Nothing much to say here as we both agree he is talented and should be a starter for quite some time for us.

Schofield--Actually quietly having a better year than people want to admit. He struggled when asked to play RT again but as a RG he has been just fine. Not pro bowl level by any means and is replaceable but for this season he is not the issue.

Sambrailo/Stephenson--This is the other trouble spot. To me we have 3 starter quality players in Okung, Paradis, and Schofield. Garcia and Stephenson/Sambrailo have been the issue. Stephenson has some of the worst technique I have seen in a player. He is constantly lunging at players getting completely out of position. Athleticism wise he is off the charts but that seems to be the whole reason teams are so interested in him thinking they can turn that athleticism into a high quality player. So far that hasn't happened while in the NFL. Sambrailo hasn't had a whole lot of chances to play especially to play healthy. He can't stay healthy and from what I can tell so far lacks the kind of strength needed to hold up at the RT position this season. Maybe an off season of being healthy and getting in an NFL weight room could do wonders.

So then the question becomes and one that all of us should be asking because I can promise you the coaches are is that of is there anything we can do to possibly try to fix this OL? I'm at least hoping the team tries a few things. Doesn't mean they will work but at least try them and see what happens. Can't get much worse than what we have.

Here are just a few things worth trying

1) Bench Garcia. I would stick Stephenson in at LG. It would help protect against him getting beat to the outside because he gets caught lunging. He in the past has graded out well when put in the guard position so it might be a better fit. Kind of like moving Schofield to RG it helped protect him against some of his worst weaknesses. Then of course that means starting Sambrailo. Not saying he is a great player but when given the chance he has actually outperformed Stephenson. If Stephenson can do better at the LG position that should help also Okung look much better not having to try and cover for all of Garcia's mistakes. This also allows us to shift protection to help Sambrailo at the RT position with either a RB/FB/TE/WR.

2) Change up some formations--With us finally having a decent 2nd TE in Derby we can finally run more 2-TE formations. This should help again with the Tackles where they can help chip as they go out into their routes. Also helps keep teams guessing of run or pass a lot more.

3) 6th OL player. Get big on the front. Kubiak has already hinted that this will be something they try. Teams will know we are running out of it but getting some bigger bodies lets us do a bit more. This is what the Raiders did to us in that 1st game and it worked well. Doesn't mean it will work well for us obviously but at least worth a try.

4) Change up the routes we are running. Try to get some more quick route concepts into the plan to help Siemian get the ball out quickly. Again also teach him to look for that quick outlet of the RB/FB.

5) Shorter drop backs by the QB. The Broncos have been running a lot of 7-9 step drop backs. Switch to more 3-5 step drop backs to make it where Siemian isn't dropping back as far making it much easier for those DE's to get to him. Helps the OT's to be able to take shallower drops in pass protection knowing DE's have to run a bigger arch to get to the QB.

Again Randymon I have never said any of these things will work. I have just said that the Broncos have to try something. Can't just sit here and say "well we suck and will continue to suck so might as well just buy into that thought and let it be." At least try some new things and see if anything works.

 

[randymon]

See this is where 2 things are happening...You and I look at the game of football very differently. I don't just sit here and say hey this group stinks that must mean there is no talent and there is no fixing this unit. I'm one that just like I'm sure the coaches are doing right now look to see if there is anything they can be doing right now to just maybe make this group look decent. The second is you seem to struggle understanding some of the things I write about. I have never said this group looks incredible. I have said they have shown glimpses of promise and have had some games that leave me having some hope but never that they have arrived. I have said from the beginning that with 4 new starters it would be a work in progress and even if they were the most talented group assembled it would have been that way where what they looked like day 1 wouldn't be what they looked like in week 17.

So for me what I do is I try to take each player individually first and see what are their core issues? Is it that they are getting whooped when they are required to go one-on-one? Is it a strength issue? Is it a footwork issue? Then in the ZBS I look at are the struggling to know when to break off to the 2nd level? Are they struggling with communication with the guy next to them? Is there more to the problem than just that they are not talented?

Here is what I have seen so far...Russell Okung when he is on his game is one of the top-5 LT's in the game. I can promise you that plenty of actual OL that have played the game will tell you the exact same thing. His issue is that his technique severely falls off at times. He will just bear hug a guy to the ground. I would also say he has some conditioning issues as it does seem some of his biggest footwork issues happen in the 4th quarter.

He and Garcia have terrible communication is another issue. Teams seem to like to blitz right at Garcia and for some reason Okung or Garcia will pick up the wrong guy.

Garcia--He has terrible recognition. Teams love to run twists at him because he just doesn't seem to be able to recognize when they are doing that. He also struggles to recognize when teams run those inside blitzes. I would say talent wise he is the one that is struggling the most. If there is a player I would like to see the Broncos replace this would be the spot.

Paradis--Nothing much to say here as we both agree he is talented and should be a starter for quite some time for us.

Schofield--Actually quietly having a better year than people want to admit. He struggled when asked to play RT again but as a RG he has been just fine. Not pro bowl level by any means and is replaceable but for this season he is not the issue.

Sambrailo/Stephenson--This is the other trouble spot. To me we have 3 starter quality players in Okung, Paradis, and Schofield. Garcia and Stephenson/Sambrailo have been the issue. Stephenson has some of the worst technique I have seen in a player. He is constantly lunging at players getting completely out of position. Athleticism wise he is off the charts but that seems to be the whole reason teams are so interested in him thinking they can turn that athleticism into a high quality player. So far that hasn't happened while in the NFL. Sambrailo hasn't had a whole lot of chances to play especially to play healthy. He can't stay healthy and from what I can tell so far lacks the kind of strength needed to hold up at the RT position this season. Maybe an off season of being healthy and getting in an NFL weight room could do wonders.

So then the question becomes and one that all of us should be asking because I can promise you the coaches are is that of is there anything we can do to possibly try to fix this OL? I'm at least hoping the team tries a few things. Doesn't mean they will work but at least try them and see what happens. Can't get much worse than what we have.

Here are just a few things worth trying

1) Bench Garcia. I would stick Stephenson in at LG. It would help protect against him getting beat to the outside because he gets caught lunging. He in the past has graded out well when put in the guard position so it might be a better fit. Kind of like moving Schofield to RG it helped protect him against some of his worst weaknesses. Then of course that means starting Sambrailo. Not saying he is a great player but when given the chance he has actually outperformed Stephenson. If Stephenson can do better at the LG position that should help also Okung look much better not having to try and cover for all of Garcia's mistakes. This also allows us to shift protection to help Sambrailo at the RT position with either a RB/FB/TE/WR.

2) Change up some formations--With us finally having a decent 2nd TE in Derby we can finally run more 2-TE formations. This should help again with the Tackles where they can help chip as they go out into their routes. Also helps keep teams guessing of run or pass a lot more.

3) 6th OL player. Get big on the front. Kubiak has already hinted that this will be something they try. Teams will know we are running out of it but getting some bigger bodies lets us do a bit more. This is what the Raiders did to us in that 1st game and it worked well. Doesn't mean it will work well for us obviously but at least worth a try.

4) Change up the routes we are running. Try to get some more quick route concepts into the plan to help Siemian get the ball out quickly. Again also teach him to look for that quick outlet of the RB/FB.

5) Shorter drop backs by the QB. The Broncos have been running a lot of 7-9 step drop backs. Switch to more 3-5 step drop backs to make it where Siemian isn't dropping back as far making it much easier for those DE's to get to him. Helps the OT's to be able to take shallower drops in pass protection knowing DE's have to run a bigger arch to get to the QB.

Again Randymon I have never said any of these things will work. I have just said that the Broncos have to try something. Can't just sit here and say "well we suck and will continue to suck so might as well just buy into that thought and let it be." At least try some new things and see if anything works.

I definitely agree with all the " things worth trying " you stated and would add power sweeps morre and I know Jano has had hand prob but he has to get more touches and action going forward to help this run game also. We shall see after season who remains on this O line.

 

[randymon]

PS. Cd , I don't think most on here don't understand the learning curve, the technique needed ,time and the cohesion required these Olinemen are up against making the transition from college to the NFL but it's one thing to miss assignments, be out of position, etc but when you are where your supposed to be, position yourself properly and get pushed backwards or flat out run over or totally run past by defenders your supposed to block....you suck!. These guys aren't continually out of position, there continually getting their asses whipped. Don't need no football guru to explain what my eyes show me. Ok,hit me with lesson number 50...I can take it Bro

 

[cdumler7]

PS. Cd , I don't think most on here don't understand the learning curve, the technique needed ,time and the cohesion required these Olinemen are up against making the transition from college to the NFL but it's one thing to miss assignments, be out of position, etc but when you are where your supposed to be, position yourself properly and get pushed backwards or flat out run over or totally run past by defenders your supposed to block....you suck!. These guys aren't continually out of position, there continually getting their asses whipped. Don't need no football guru to explain what my eyes show me. Ok,hit me with lesson number 50...I can take it Bro

Good thoughts sir. No real lesson this time. All I will say is I just might disagree a bit on the idea that most of them are getting beat that way. I will agree that Garcia and whoever has been playing Right Tackle for us fall into what you have said. I will also agree that at times Okung has fallen into that category after he got his concussion for a few weeks. He has looked much better lately though and I do think that both Schofield and Paradis have done just fine. Might just have to agree to disagree on which players fall into your category. I think we both agree though that it is at least worth trying some new things after the bye week as how much worse can it get? We are both not satisfied with what we have put on the field this year and yes that some major changes are coming down the road.

 

[Orange Crush77]

When is IKno - going to tell us which posts met his standard as "critically well thought out" and which ones didn't?

I've got my own list.

Do tell

 

[58crash]

You mean OC and Mingo my well thought reply of
OL.

might not of cut the mustard ?

 

[Mingo]

If Broncos deal with 'the facts' they think the postseason awaits

What the Broncos under Kubiak do - to answer IKno's questions.