3 best stats to judge a pitcher on.

[DragonfromTO]

I disagree... and i am tired of people discounting and discrediting "team" stats... they are still very important... how often do we see pitchers that win everytime they are in a close game, while other pitchers let up just enough runs to lose...

Since we see them often, can you name a bunch of guys who actually fit these profiles?

 

[cezero]

I disagree... and i am tired of people discounting and discrediting "team" stats... they are still very important... how often do we see pitchers that win everytime they are in a close game, while other pitchers let up just enough runs to lose...

a team's win/loss record is important. counting it as an individual stat for a pitcher is moronic. anything you have said or will say to refute that fact is moot.

 

[cezero]

Since we see them often, can you name a bunch of guys who actually fit these profiles?

no, he can't. anything he says to support it will be idiotic.

w/l is a team measuring tool that covers the entirety of 9 (or more) innings, from starting pitching, to relief pitching, to defense, to offense, to managing. counting it as a stat for a starting pitcher is stupid beyond belief.

 

[navamind]

W-L

ERA

Quality Starts.

#truth.

Lol.

 

[navamind]

Innings.

This. It's one that should absolutely be in any top 3.

 

[Windingmywatch]

I disagree... and i am tired of people discounting and discrediting "team" stats... they are still very important... how often do we see pitchers that win everytime they are in a close game, while other pitchers let up just enough runs to lose...

... or maybe they got crappy run support. W-L is a team stat.

Top 3 pitching stats ...

WHIP
ERA
IP

 

[gandydancer]

I disagree... and i am tired of people discounting and discrediting "team" stats... they are still very important... how often do we see pitchers that win everytime they are in a close game, while other pitchers let up just enough runs to lose...

Small example is Doug Fister. 3-12 3.33 ERA with Seattle in 21 starts. he was 8-1 and 1.79 ERA after 10 starts with Detroit. He lowered his ERA with Detroit so you can't say he had run support in Detroit to bail him out. Same pitcher, but would you discredit him because of W-L in Seattle?

I also look at some pithers who get CY and W-L is never the first criteria used. It is all the stats others people speak of in the this thread. IMO W-L should be one of last standards to rank pitchers on.

 

[Brahmsian]

WHIP is least dependent on the quality of the pitcher's teammates so it's the one I rate highest.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

this is not a stat- but how would this be if it was:
using real statistics
expected wins(but make it for the actual pitcher)- espn stat using squares
Games started
W-L %

if we take the earned runs a pitcher lets up and the runs an offense scores for a pitcher to get the individual pitchers Expected wins...

then the final stat lets call it Win efficiency or WE= actual W-L%- expected W-L%

lets take Clayton Kershaw as an example
He let up 48 ER and 55 runs
He started 33 games
he pitched 236 innings
his run support was 125.07 lets make that 95 runs to be more accurate due to pitchers dont pitch all game- and he pitched less than 79% of the games he played in
He had 16 wins
he had 9 losses

Expected wins= runs scored^2/(Runs scored^2 + Runs allowed^2)= 95^2/(55^2+95^2)=74.9%= rounded down =74

He had a 64% win percentage

so his WE= 64-74=-10%
that is saying that he lost more games than he should have lost...

 

[cezero]

this is not a stat- but how would this be if it was:
using real statistics
expected wins(but make it for the actual pitcher)- espn stat using squares
Games started
W-L %

if we take the earned runs a pitcher lets up and the runs an offense scores for a pitcher to get the individual pitchers Expected wins...

then the final stat lets call it Win efficiency or WE= Expected W-L % - actual W-L%

lets take Clayton Kershaw as an example
He let up 48 ER and 55 runs
He started 33 games
he pitched 236 innings
his run support was 125.07 lets make that 95 runs to be more accurate due to pitchers dont pitch all game- and he pitched less than 79% of the games he played in
He had 16 wins
he had 9 losses

Expected wins= runs scored^2/(Runs scored^2 + Runs allowed^2)= 95^2/(55^2+95^2)=74.9%= rounded down =74

He had a 64% win percentage

so his WE= 64-74=-10%
that is saying that he lost more games than he should have lost...

yet w/l is useful purely as a team stat, and among the most meaningless stats for a starting pitcher.

 

[cezero]

WHIP is least dependent on the quality of the pitcher's teammates so it's the one I rate highest.

yep

as opposed to something like w/l, which is completely dependent on the offensive and defensive output of an entire team over the course of 9 or more innings.

 

[Brahmsian]

this is not a stat- but how would this be if it was:
using real statistics
expected wins(but make it for the actual pitcher)- espn stat using squares
Games started
W-L %

if we take the earned runs a pitcher lets up and the runs an offense scores for a pitcher to get the individual pitchers Expected wins...

then the final stat lets call it Win efficiency or WE= actual W-L%- expected W-L%

lets take Clayton Kershaw as an example
He let up 48 ER and 55 runs
He started 33 games
he pitched 236 innings
his run support was 125.07 lets make that 95 runs to be more accurate due to pitchers dont pitch all game- and he pitched less than 79% of the games he played in
He had 16 wins
he had 9 losses

Expected wins= runs scored^2/(Runs scored^2 + Runs allowed^2)= 95^2/(55^2+95^2)=74.9%= rounded down =74

He had a 64% win percentage

so his WE= 64-74=-10%
that is saying that he lost more games than he should have lost...

Problem with that is it does not take walks allowed into consideration.

Walks are strictly the pitcher's fault. The range or effort level of his teammates does not effect them as it can hits or earned runs.

And hits can be effected by official scorers' judgement calls.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

For starting pitchers...
IP
ERA+
WHIP

For relief pitchers
WHIP
K/9
OPSA

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

Problem with that is it does not take walks allowed into consideration.

Walks are strictly the pitcher's fault. The range or effort level of his teammates does not effect them as it can hits or earned runs.

And hits can be effected by official scorers' judgement calls.

You don't think batters and umpires play any role in walks?

 

[cezero]

You don't think batters and umpires play any role in walks?

true, but that shit tends to even out over the course of rotating through 162 games around the country, though.

all officiating deservews close scrutiny at all time though so i undersantd you

 

[dougplayer]

yes. wins don't mean nuttin.
that's the smart thinking now a days.


who cares if a pitcher like verlander has throw already 90 pitches in the 7th inning.
with his team tied. most would grab some pine and not hurt his ERA..
but some like verlander. goes back out. pitches the 8th. gets the W for his TEAM.


that's why W are important. you got to have the HEART to stay in and get that W for your team.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

yes. wins don't mean nuttin.
that's the smart thinking now a days.


who cares if a pitcher like verlander has throw already 90 pitches in the 7th inning.
with his team tied. most would grab some pine and not hurt his ERA..
but some like verlander. goes back out. pitches the 8th. gets the W for his TEAM.


that's why W are important. you got to have the HEART to stay in and get that W for your team.

Ummm... to win that game, wouldn't the offense have to score again? So how exactly is Verlander getting the W for his team. Run prevention is obviously a huge part of the game, but you can't win if you don't score, which is why it's silly to assign wins to an individual pitcher.

It's not a meaningless statistic. It's just a tertiary statistic. Pitching deep into games and factoring into decisions is valuable. Just not as valuable as many, many other measures of a pitcher's ability.

 

[Lemon Harang Pie]

yes. wins don't mean nuttin.
that's the smart thinking now a days.


who cares if a pitcher like verlander has throw already 90 pitches in the 7th inning.
with his team tied. most would grab some pine and not hurt his ERA..
but some like verlander. goes back out. pitches the 8th. gets the W for his TEAM.


that's why W are important. you got to have the HEART to stay in and get that W for your team.

An offense that puts up 10+ runs a game is a lot more important to a pitcher getting a "W" then heart.

 

[Brahmsian]

You don't think batters and umpires play any role in walks?

Less than they do on other things anyway.

Walks coming closer to being all on the pitcher than anything else might have been better phrasing now that I think about it.

 

[navamind]

yes. wins don't mean nuttin.
that's the smart thinking now a days.


who cares if a pitcher like verlander has throw already 90 pitches in the 7th inning.
with his team tied. most would grab some pine and not hurt his ERA..
but some like verlander. goes back out. pitches the 8th. gets the W for his TEAM.


that's why W are important. you got to have the HEART to stay in and get that W for your team.

So not only are you too stupid to bother understanding how stats like WAR work, but you don't even know how pitchers wins and losses work?