2012 Rookies

[BINGO]

I haven't seen anyone (whose comments should be considered to begin with) say that the combine should be ignored.

I have however seen many of us say that the combine comes in 2nd to on field performance. I'm not one to hype up or condemn a guy based on combine numbers, the world has been fooled too many times for that. Film is what matters first and foremost and secondly we see what type of athlete they are.

I don't see where this debate is going, because basically both Dub and Sick are arguing the same case. What I'm reading here is that both of you see eye-to-eye on this issue.

Let's look back at Dontari Poe for a second. A lot of folks were bashing him because he didn't dominate in college like he should have, especially considering the fact that he played at a conference in which the level of competition (type of talent) is mediocre at best. Even before the combine us three were raving about Poe despite the criticism we were reading about him, the combine came and basically propelled him in the first round. People were using his combine numbers to criticize him even more by calling him a "workout warrior", a "Mike Mamula clone", etc.

 

[NinerSickness]

I haven't seen anyone (whose comments should be considered to begin with) say that the combine should be ignored.

I have. I hear people on sports radio say the combine is useless and just for show all the time, and then they cite a couple of examples of workout warriours who sucked at football as evidence.

And plenty of people on SportsHoopla over the years have said I was stupid for drastically changing my opinion of players because they either had a great or atrocious combine. And then they cite the rare example(s) to prove their points.

Its like saying size & height doesn't matter because of Desean Jackson; 40 time / 3cone doesn't matter because of Anquon Boldin. So look for a slow, 5'8 guy who weighs 175 pounds and he'll be the next great NFL WR.

 

[Dodub]

I have. I hear people on sports radio say the combine is useless and just for show all the time, and then they cite a couple of examples of workout warriours who sucked at football as evidence.

And plenty of people on SportsHoopla over the years have said I was stupid for drastically changing my opinion of players because they either had a great or atrocious combine. And then they cite the rare example(s) to prove their points.

Its like saying size & height doesn't matter because of Desean Jackson; 40 time / 3cone doesn't matter because of Anquon Boldin. So look for a slow, 5'8 guy who weighs 175 pounds and he'll be the next great NFL WR.

There is plenty of evidence over the years for both arguments. There have been tons of guys with poor combine performances to play well, there have been tons of guys with great combine performances to fail. There have been tons of guys with poor combine performances to fail, there have been guys with great performances to play well. There is tons of evidence on all sides of the argument.

 

[NinerSickness]

Let's look back at Dontari Poe for a second. A lot of folks were bashing him because he didn't dominate in college like he should have, especially considering the fact that he played at a conference in which the level of competition (type of talent) is mediocre at best. Even before the combine us three were raving about Poe despite the criticism we were reading about him, the combine came and basically propelled him in the first round. People were using his combine numbers to criticize him even more by calling him a "workout warrior", a "Mike Mamula clone", etc.

Another great example.

JPP is a good one too. Stephon Gilmore shot up the board because of his combine when he had pretty harsh criticism of his play his last year in college.

Melvin Ingram (a guy I thought was vastly overrated from day 1) played great in college and had a very poor combine. Shea McClellin is another guy like that. And then there are WRs like Jon Baldwin, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett, etc,

The combine matters. A lot. And I rarely see anyone ever refute people who call it the underwear bowl, useless, all for show, etc.

 

[NinerSickness]

People say, "You're just saying he's going to be great because he had an amazing combine" and I usually say, "well that's a big part of it." And people say that's stupid; but those people haven't obsessively been following the draft for 13 years.

One thing I see every year is when sports writers say they "went back to look at the film" as the reason they raised or dropped a guy on their draft boards AFTER the combine. They're embarrassed to admit that the combine changed their minds! Why? Because the VAST majority of people in the media and fans call the combine borderline useless and at the very least extremely "overrated." But the vast majority of people don't know jack squat about the NFL draft.

 

[Dodub]

Another great example.

JPP is a good one too. Stephon Gilmore shot up the board because of his combine when he had pretty harsh criticism of his play his last year in college.

Melvin Ingram (a guy I thought was vastly overrated from day 1) played great in college and had a very poor combine. Shea McClellin is another guy like that. And then there are WRs like Jon Baldwin, Mike Williams, Dwayne Jarrett, etc,

The combine matters. A lot. And I rarely see anyone ever refute people who call it the underwear bowl, useless, all for show, etc.

But for everyone one of those guys like Mike Williams there are guys like Troy Williamson, Vernon Gholston, Manny Lawson, Ashley Lelie who had the great combine performances yet flopped in the league. Again there is evidence on both sides.

 

[imac_21]

But for everyone one of those guys like Mike Williams there are guys like Troy Williamson, Vernon Gholston, Manny Lawson, Ashley Lelie who had the great combine performances yet flopped in the league. Again there is evidence on both sides.

I don't believe Lelie had a great combine performance. I don't believe he had a combine performance. He had a bad hammy and didn't run.

It's also important to separate a great combine from running a great 40 at the combine.

 

[NinerSickness]

But for everyone one of those guys like Mike Williams there are guys like Troy Williamson, Vernon Gholston, Manny Lawson, Ashley Lelie who had the great combine performances yet flopped in the league. Again there is evidence on both sides.

Yes, but every one of the names you mentioned were incredibly productive in college as well. Gholston had 3 sacks against Jake Long in 1 game if I'm not mistaken. They weren't taken so high merely on combine performances.

And Manny didn't "flop," he's just not a pass rusher. He's actually a pretty good 4-3 guy.

 

[imac_21]

And Manny didn't "flop," he's just not a pass rusher. He's actually a pretty good 4-3 guy.

He's a beast when it comes to setting the edge in the run game.

 

[Dodub]

Yes, but every one of the names you mentioned were incredibly productive in college as well. Gholston had 3 sacks against Jake Long in 1 game if I'm not mistaken. They weren't taken so high merely on combine performances.

And Manny didn't "flop," he's just not a pass rusher. He's actually a pretty good 4-3 guy.

I don't agree that they were incredibly productive in college, not all of the at least. Lawson had one good season if I remember, I'll have to look up how Gholston and Troy Williamson did in college. Lelie benefitted from a run and shoot.

Manny certainly flopped as a pass rusher. He was very good at setting the edge, but should not have been a 1st rounder. He is a solid at best 4-3 guy, he hasn't really been anything special since leaving here.

 

[imac_21]

I don't agree that they were incredibly productive in college, not all of the at least. Lawson had one good season if I remember, I'll have to look up how Gholston and Troy Williamson did in college. Lelie benefitted from a run and shoot.

Manny certainly flopped as a pass rusher. He was very good at setting the edge, but should not have been a 1st rounder. He is a solid at best 4-3 guy, he hasn't really been anything special since leaving here.

Lelie also didn't have a great combine with a bad hamstring. He didn't participate in any of the combine events due to that injury.

Here's Gholston's OSU stats:
Vernon Gholston Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Here's Lawson:
Manny Lawson Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

They don't list his junior numbers, but footballsfuture says:
FR: 35 tackles/1TFL as a backup LB
SO: 53 tackles/7 TFL/3 sacks as a part time starter at LB
JR: 50 tackles/12 TFL/ sacks as a full time starter at DE
SR: 58/19.5/10.5

Manny Lawson 2006 NFL Draft Prospect


Here's Williamson:
Troy Williamson Stats | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

I can't find a list of 06 pre-combine ranking for Lawson's draft year, but if memory serves, he was always a late 1/early 2 prospect. His athleticism didn't surprise and his numbers suggest he was good (though he played on a line with 2 other first round picks at NC State).

On a related note, I've always thought it would be awesome, and am now "saying" it, if there were a website that charted individual players' draft stocks throughout their senior year with simple dot graphs. That would make it much easier to see if it's how much the combine affects individual players' stocks on "draft guru" boards.

 

[BINGO]

David DeCastro - G - Steelers

RG David DeCastro is getting credit for the revival of the Steelers' running game.

Our Lance Zierlein noticed DeCastro dominating one-on-one battles against the Ravens' supremely talented front seven last week, helping pave the way for Le'Veon Bell's 19/93/0 day. Through seven weeks, DeCastro is No. 5 guard (out of 73 qualifiers) and has allowed just two sacks and two quarterback hits. After a knee injury crippled his rookie year, the 2012 first-rounder is paying major dividends.
Source: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Oct 24 - 9:35 AM

 

[BINGO]

Melvin Ingram - LB - Chargers

Chargers OLB Melvin Ingram (PUP, knee) is not expected to try to begin practicing until Nov. 19.

Ingram tore his ACL during a May OTA. If he is able to get back in practice and contribute at all this season, the Chargers will consider it a bonus. The 2012 first-round pick led the team in quarterback hurries as a rookie with 29.
Source: Union-Tribune San Diego

Oct 31 - 10:33 AM

 

[NinerSickness]

David DeCastro - G - Steelers

RG David DeCastro is getting credit for the revival of the Steelers' running game.

Our Lance Zierlein noticed DeCastro dominating one-on-one battles against the Ravens' supremely talented front seven last week, helping pave the way for Le'Veon Bell's 19/93/0 day. Through seven weeks, DeCastro is No. 5 guard (out of 73 qualifiers) and has allowed just two sacks and two quarterback hits. After a knee injury crippled his rookie year, the 2012 first-rounder is paying major dividends.
Source: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Oct 24 - 9:35 AM

Some Ravens fan (or Bengals fan; I forget) on the main board called DeCastro a bust earlier this season.

If / when Pouncey comes back 100% next year, that is going to be one scary interior OL. And the draft is so full of great tackle prospects, the Steelers (Roethlisberger specifically) could be back in business next season.

 

[BINGO]

Some Ravens fan (or Bengals fan; I forget) on the main board called DeCastro a bust earlier this season.

If / when Pouncey comes back 100% next year, that is going to be one scary interior OL. And the draft is so full of great tackle prospects, the Steelers (Roethlisberger specifically) could be back in business next season.

Bell is a very good back. Give him some good blockers up front, and he has what it takes to become one of the better backs in the league in a very short time.

 

[BINGO]

David DeCastro - G - Steelers

Lions DT Ndamukong Suh didn't record any tackles, sacks or pressures in Sunday's Week 11 loss at Pittsburgh.

Much of the credit goes to Steelers RG David DeCastro, who is emerging as one of the best interior linemen in football. The No. 24 overall pick in the 2012 draft was part of a Steelers offensive line that helped Ben Roethlisberger to go 29-of-45 for 367 yards with four touchdowns and no picks. Big Ben was sacked just once. Related: Ndamukong Suh
Source: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Nov 18 - 10:27 AM

 

[NinerSickness]

David DeCastro - G - Steelers

Lions DT Ndamukong Suh didn't record any tackles, sacks or pressures in Sunday's Week 11 loss at Pittsburgh.

Much of the credit goes to Steelers RG David DeCastro, who is emerging as one of the best interior linemen in football. The No. 24 overall pick in the 2012 draft was part of a Steelers offensive line that helped Ben Roethlisberger to go 29-of-45 for 367 yards with four touchdowns and no picks. Big Ben was sacked just once. Related: Ndamukong Suh
Source: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Nov 18 - 10:27 AM

Imagine if the Niners traded up for him (like they should've) and he were playing center right now.

Clyde & I were banging pots & pans on draft day chanting for the Niners to trade up for him. Decastro at center + the rest of the Niners' OL could've been one of the best offensive lines of all time. ~sigh

 

[Ray_Dogg]

I love reading all these great reports about our 2012 rookies.

 

[BINGO]

Nick Foles - QB - Eagles

Coach Chip Kelly told reporters Monday he is committed to Nick Foles as the Eagles' long-term starting quarterback.

"He’s the starting quarterback for the next 1,000 years here," said Kelly. Foles has earned the commitment and then some with a 19:0 TD-to-INT ratio as a passer and 63.3 completion rate through nine appearances. He's rushed for two more scores, and the Eagles have quietly emerged as the NFL's most underrated team. We still wonder if Kelly will use a mid-round draft pick in 2014 on a more mobile signal caller, but Foles' future is obviously shining bright. He's on the cusp of stable QB1 value in Dynasty leagues, and will be an every-week starter during the 2013 fantasy playoffs.
Source: Rueben Frank on Twitter

Dec 2 - 1:46 PM