QB Value

[Stymietee]

Got to love the Qualifier thing. So you think ANY backup would do just as well as Kirk in this offense?? Vick?? Kaepernick?? Manziel?? Thats like saying Peyton or Eli could run the read option. Yes Kirk is well qualified to run OUR offense. But I think you give him very little credit in saying that any old stiff could do as well as or better than Kirk has.

Absolutely, maybe better in some cases, just as I believe that there will be very little tolerance for a mediocre or struggling KC if he follows the money and signs elsewhere. As SM improves the team as Gibbs did, who's at QB will carry less significance as this season has dramatically demonstrated. Yes I honestly believe that Kirk is a good QB made better by the offensive structure that he's in. (See: Matt Flynn, Cassell and a host of others)

BTW: I never said that any old stiff could do as well or better, just that comparable players in Jay Gruden's offense could. (Any former backup currently starting)

I was looking for a line from a movie that to me sums up the long time thirst for stability at QB here and why from my perspective so many are putting their hopes in a futuristic, hopeful, envisioned version of Kirk and not what he currently has proven to be. It's from the movie "The American President"

One character says: "They're looking for leadership, they're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover that there's no water, they'll drink the sand."

..............AND..........

The lead character responds: "People don't drink the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference."

 

[Sharkinva]

Well Sty, I think a few around here are living off the old tried and true... The Grass is always greener in some one elses yard.

That or, if I had just given her another chance, the crazy chick would have finally come around eventually.

 

[Breed]

You just don't quit huh? I've stated a reason beyond any that you suggest that I have. Although you may not agree, that is how I see it working out if the tag is not going to be used. To be clear, from my perspective ANY of the current backups, that currently start for injured regular starters would do just as good or better in this system as Kirk. So, before anyone wants to go off on some indefensible tangent, Kirk is a good QB in this offense, but you have to take note of the qualifier.

KC cut down on his INTs over the course of the year, but he continued to miss too many passes to open receivers or didn't passes at times due to being over-cautious and/or lack of arm strength. That said, the way the game is set up now. A QB doesn't really have to be a baller to get paid, he just has to not be a fuck up and somebody will pay him. Somebody's gonna pay Cousins. If Scotty Mac deems KC should get paid so be it, if he doesn't though, I'll be OK with that as well.

 

[Breed]

KC cut down on his INTs over the course of the year, but he continued to miss too many passes to open receivers or didn't even attempt passes at times due to being over-cautious and/or lack of arm strength. That said, the way the game is set up now. A QB doesn't really have to be a baller to get paid, he just has to not be a fuck up and somebody will pay him. Somebody's gonna pay Cousins. If Scotty Mac deems KC should get paid so be it, if he doesn't though, I'll be OK with that as well.

 

[gkekoa]

If I'm connecting the dots correctly, I take it that you view Cousins in the same vein as the QBs you listed.

In either case...here you go.

Taylor...I think Cousins more closely lines up with this guy...been in the league for a few years finally got a chance to start and made fairly good on it in a FA yr...4/$70/$20G

Fitz & Hoyer ages make them stop gap QBs at this point. Both are playing because the younger QB failed or got injured. I know the same applies for Cousins in sense, I think he's young enough to be looking for a long term starter type contract....these guys 3/$30/$12G

Bortles & Winston...imo both of these guys will get 2nd contracts from their current teams and I think deals like Dalton got in probably in play here. 6/$80-90/$30G

Palmer is a totally different animal...nearing the end of his career, but has really shined the last 2 years, a serious MVP candidate this season...4/$65/$40G

How exactly would you have Palmer's contract set up because that is only 16 mil per season? He is an MVP candidate on a team ready to compete now. You would actually be paying KC and TT more than Palmer?

What is more insane, you would pay KC and TT much more than Bortles and Winston?

 

[Sportster 72]

Absolutely, maybe better in some cases, just as I believe that there will be very little tolerance for a mediocre or struggling KC if he follows the money and signs elsewhere. As SM improves the team as Gibbs did, who's at QB will carry less significance as this season has dramatically demonstrated. Yes I honestly believe that Kirk is a good QB made better by the offensive structure that he's in. (See: Matt Flynn, Cassell and a host of others)

BTW: I never said that any old stiff could do as well or better, just that comparable players in Jay Gruden's offense could. (Any former backup currently starting)

I was looking for a line from a movie that to me sums up the long time thirst for stability at QB here and why from my perspective so many are putting their hopes in a futuristic, hopeful, envisioned version of Kirk and not what he currently has proven to be. It's from the movie "The American President"

One character says: "They're looking for leadership, they're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover that there's no water, they'll drink the sand."

..............AND..........

The lead character responds: "People don't drink the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference."

Or some of us look across a pasture looking at a horse and say "that's a hoOthrse." Others have been trying to convince us that it is a donkey. To each his own. Hopefully we will be having this argument five years from now.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Well Sty, I think a few around here are living off the old tried and true... The Grass is always greener in some one elses yard.

That or, if I had just given her another chance, the crazy chick would have finally come around eventually.

You are wasting your time. Even though a certain person here will never admit it - he is an RG3 fan first & a Redskins fan second. Even if Cousins eventually makes the pro bowl and wins some playoff games some will never give him credit.

I try to be a bit more objective on this situation. I was pretty much against Cousins until recently & will admit that I was a huge RG3 fan until late last season. However - I try to keep an open mind & have seen Cousins make major strides this season. Some have pointed out some other possible flaws for him. Point well taken. However - he is not a finished product & can definitely get better due to his own development & an improvement in the players around him.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Some of you are going to be very surprised at the numbers when they do sign Kirk. Starting QBs get paid. Big. And contracts are always going up, not down. It's going to be 4-5 years at $17-$20 Mil/year with some outs for the team.

 

[j_y19]

Some of you are going to be very surprised at the numbers when they do sign Kirk. Starting QBs get paid. Big. And contracts are always going up, not down. It's going to be 4-5 years at $17-$20 Mil/year with some outs for the team.

I agree. I think a portion of that $17-20M will be in the form of incentives. But he is going to get paid. And SM is not going to let him walk.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Not saying Kirk is a long term answer but how many teams are regretting passing when it's pretty clear that he probably could have been available for a 3rd? Bruce said his phone never rang.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Not saying Kirk is a long term answer but how many teams are regretting passing when it's pretty clear that he probably could have been available for a 3rd? Bruce said his phone never rang.

Yep. He may not be the long term answer, but he certainly should be the starter at least through next season. Therefore - the issue should be more about not so much the yearly figure but how much they will be on the hook for if say he doesn't work out beyond that time.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

How exactly would you have Palmer's contract set up because that is only 16 mil per season? He is an MVP candidate on a team ready to compete now. You would actually be paying KC and TT more than Palmer?

What is more insane, you would pay KC and TT much more than Bortles and Winston?

Palmer...you're right, his number should be a little higher...closer to 20 mil per...but my main focus there is the $G because he might have a drop off near the end like P. Manning.

Bortles/Winston...well the way I'm looking at them...longer term, more cash total, to keep the cap hit lower.

 

[Sportster 72]

There's the thing. We do not know if Cousins is the long term answer but he has done nothing to suggest we shouldn't give him more time to continue to improve and show he is.

The idea that you can get any average QB to replace comes from the same people that said in the beginning of the year that he couldn't win games and he was no more than a backup. Then his YPA wasn't high enough or he was throwing 3 yard passes with 35 yards of YAC. (Imagine that in a west coast offense) Now he is not accurate enough and is missing too many receivers although his completion percentage is the highest in the league.

For those who suggest we are praising him too much I say ... quit changing the parameters. He has shown a willingness to work hard and a strong desire to improve. That impresses me. Those us that are cheering him and instead of finding reasons to jeer him aren't sure he is the guy but we are willing to see if he can be a top 10 QB. He is already mid pack and not finished his first year as starter with a rebuilding team that has no run game.

 

[j_y19]

There's the thing. We do not know if Cousins is the long term answer but he has done nothing to suggest we shouldn't give him more time to continue to improve and show he is.

The idea that you can get any average QB to replace comes from the same people that said in the beginning of the year that he couldn't win games and he was no more than a backup. Then his YPA wasn't high enough or he was throwing 3 yard passes with 35 yards of YAC. (Imagine that in a west coast offense) Now he is not accurate enough and is missing too many receivers although his completion percentage is the highest in the league.

For those who suggest we are praising him too much I say ... quit changing the parameters. He has shown a willingness to work hard and a strong desire to improve. That impresses me. Those us that are cheering him and instead of finding reasons to jeer him aren't sure he is the guy but we are willing to see if he can be a top 10 QB. He is already mid pack and not finished his first year as starter with a rebuilding team that has no run game.

Sportster, your post makes too much sense. Most of those that still aren't sold (to put it nicely) have ulterior wishes. While they won't come out and say it, the majority of them want to see him fail so that the chosen one won't look so inept. I find it funny that those nit picking on KCs flaws come up with all kind of excuses for the chosen one. I just wish they would man up and state what they really want to happen as opposed to hiding behind the nit picking of KC.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I don' t think that's fair. I was one of those very critical of Kirk. And after the first Giants game, where he continued to show his pattern of game changing turnovers and missed passes on big opportunities, it was a reasonable position to take. But since then he has shown steady improvement, eliminated the high INT rate, and has made plays to win games. So it's equally reasonable to see Kirk in a different light now and wanting to be right has nothing to do with it.

 

[gkekoa]

Palmer...you're right, his number should be a little higher...closer to 20 mil per...but my main focus there is the $G because he might have a drop off near the end like P. Manning.

Bortles/Winston...well the way I'm looking at them...longer term, more cash total, to keep the cap hit lower.

Why would Palmer take less money in case he does play the contract value? The Cardinals would have to give him that guaranteed no matter what. He may play the first two years at 16 mil per season with your suggested guaranteed but they would likely have to offset the underpay there with 22-24 mil for the last two.

The Bortles/Winston contracts don't line up with three and four year starters coming off their rookie contracts. KC is a one year starter and it has been bumpy. He is far less of a record and won't receive more than they do. KC will likely need to sign a show me contract like Foles.

 

[Breed]

Good grief. Y'all need to stop acting like chickenheads who are doin the same guy and swear he only loves you. When in reality he's runnin up in damn near everything and anything that's female with a pulse. So not everyone is enamored with Cousins. For good reason imo. Has he improved over the course of the season? Yep, he has. He's certainly gotten a handle on his INTs. He completes a whole lot of passes as well and he's even brought his ypa up to a respectable number, 7.3 ypa. As it was hovering at 6.3, pretty much the shittiest ypa for all starting QBs, till the Saints game. Hence the reason I brought it up. Now has Jackson's return made a difference? Sure, but damn if Jackson is that instrumental in that regard, maybe he oughta be making 20 million a year.

What might help greatly in that regard as well though is Cousins giving pass catchers not named Reed and Jackson, and even Jackson is not immune to it, some opportunities to make plays downfield. Particularly on routes they are open on. Now maybe you KC fanboys are on point and KC will get to where you all think he can eventually. My point though is that in part, he should already be there or at least made a couple visits, checked out the schools, hot spots etc. Now I would hazard a guess some is play-calling as the Skins don't seem to have a lot of hot reads for their wide outs when the opposition is showing or possibly showing blitz. Some of it is Cousins could manipulate the pocket better, a side step here or there could've certainly helped on a few throws.

Some of it though is Cousins simply not throwing the ball to the right player. If any of y'all tape games, you'd see what I'm talkin bout. Its a significant reason why I haven't goten 100% on-board with cutting Garcon. Cuz while hos numbers are pretty damn shitty across the board for a #1 WR or #2 WR. for that matter. I deon' think his skill-set is being used as t could be. Same goes for JC and Reed imo though Reedhas really upped his after the catch running skiils and he has a decent amount of TD catches as well, though he should have more as well. Both Garcon and Jackson should have more TDs catches and its getting criminal that JC is still w/o a TD catch despite being in great position to have 3 to 5 mid to long range TD catches if he were being given some opportunities to make said plays. I know some of y'all wil no doubtl fall on that "The Skins are a young team, they will make mistakes, they don't win yet, you expect too much, yadda yadda yadda." sword. I'm not talkin bout the Skins as a team though. I'm talkin bout Kirk Cousins the Skins QB not pulling the trigger when he should be being so.

 

[Sportster 72]

Lets cut him.

 

[Stymietee]

How about talking about him as he currently is and not what we hope he might become!

 

[Stymietee]

Good grief. Y'all need to stop acting like chickenheads who are doin the same guy and swear he only loves you. When in reality he's runnin up in damn near everything and anything that's female with a pulse. So not everyone is enamored with Cousins. For good reason imo. Has he improved over the course of the season? Yep, he has. He's certainly gotten a handle on his INTs. He completes a whole lot of passes as well and he's even brought his ypa up to a respectable number, 7.3 ypa. As it was hovering at 6.3, pretty much the shittiest ypa for all starting QBs, till the Saints game. Hence the reason I brought it up. Now has Jackson's return made a difference? Sure, but damn if Jackson is that instrumental in that regard, maybe he oughta be making 20 million a year.

What might help greatly in that regard as well though is Cousins giving pass catchers not named Reed and Jackson, and even Jackson is not immune to it, some opportunities to make plays downfield. Particularly on routes they are open on. Now maybe you KC fanboys are on point and KC will get to where you all think he can eventually. My point though is that in part, he should already be there or at least made a couple visits, checked out the schools, hot spots etc. Now I would hazard a guess some is play-calling as the Skins don't seem to have a lot of hot reads for their wide outs when the opposition is showing or possibly showing blitz. Some of it is Cousins could manipulate the pocket better, a side step here or there could've certainly helped on a few throws.

Some of it though is Cousins simply not throwing the ball to the right player. If any of y'all tape games, you'd see what I'm talkin bout. Its a significant reason why I haven't goten 100% on-board with cutting Garcon. Cuz while hos numbers are pretty damn shitty across the board for a #1 WR or #2 WR. for that matter. I deon' think his skill-set is being used as t could be. Same goes for JC and Reed imo though Reedhas really upped his after the catch running skiils and he has a decent amount of TD catches as well, though he should have more as well. Both Garcon and Jackson should have more TDs catches and its getting criminal that JC is still w/o a TD catch despite being in great position to have 3 to 5 mid to long range TD catches if he were being given some opportunities to make said plays. I know some of y'all wil no doubtl fall on that "The Skins are a young team, they will make mistakes, they don't win yet, you expect too much, yadda yadda yadda." sword. I'm not talkin bout the Skins as a team though. I'm talkin bout Kirk Cousins the Skins QB not pulling the trigger when he should be being so.