Monday Afternoon thoughts.

[Sharkinva]

Look you can claim that all you want. And we can debate it all we want. But you cant poke fun at a plan for MAYBE working when your preferred plan only MIGHT work. I mean, cmon. Thats pretty stupid.

Actually my PLAN has worked a hell of alot more times than the rinse and repeat fire a coach every few years approach. The majority of your teams that show consistent improvement are teams that maintain a coaching staff for three or MORE years. Most of your teams that are constantly rebuilding are always switching coaches and systems. The FEW coaches that do have instant success, have taken over teams that had some kind of coaching stability for a period of time.

SO IM not poking fun, IM using logic in this case. And logically speaking, firing Gruden means... new system, new QB and another rebuilding project despite the GM being in place. Now considering the fact that most of the QBs available in free agency this coming off season are a hot mess, and most of the rookies are considered a part of one of the weaker draft class for the position.... you tell me who is being more rational??

 

[ehb5]

Actually my PLAN has worked a hell of alot more times than the rinse and repeat fire a coach every few years approach. The majority of your teams that show consistent improvement are teams that maintain a coaching staff for three or MORE years. Most of your teams that are constantly rebuilding are always switching coaches and systems. The FEW coaches that do have instant success, have taken over teams that had some kind of coaching stability for a period of time.

SO IM not poking fun, IM using logic in this case. And logically speaking, firing Gruden means... new system, new QB and another rebuilding project despite the GM being in place. Now considering the fact that most of the QBs available in free agency this coming off season are a hot mess, and most of the rookies are considered a part of one of the weaker draft class for the position.... you tell me who is being more rational??

I think you're confusing correlation with causation.

I also love how I'm accused of being the irrational one when I dare to say that MAYBE Cousins and Gruden arent right. You guys are incredibly defensive about those 2.

 

[Sharkinva]

I think you're confusing correlation with causation.

I also love how I'm accused of being the irrational one when I dare to say that MAYBE Cousins and Gruden arent right. You guys are incredibly defensive about those 2.

NO more defensive than you have been of Griffin. And I call it like i see it. I think alot of your dislike of Gruden and by extension Cousins has been based in your support of Griffin. But I get it, if Gruden and Cousins succeed... well I will let you finish that thought.

 

[ehb5]

NO more defensive than you have been of Griffin. And I call it like i see it. I think alot of your dislike of Gruden and by extension Cousins has been based in your support of Griffin. But I get it, if Gruden and Cousins succeed... well I will let you finish that thought.

I honestly think you're confusing me with somebody else. I don't know when I've defensively stood up for Griffin. I don't hate him but I've been fine with Cousins literally all season.

And to finish that thought for you...ill be the happiest damn person on the planet.

If you think I'm rooting against them than I don't know what to tell you because that's just you making shit up. And if you're gonna do that you're not really worth debating on anything. And since I enjoy debating with you and other posters on here I'm going to assume you don't actually think I want anybody on this team to fail.

 

[skinsdad62]

i love debating people like this

Q who can you get that is better

A i dont know it isnt my job to know i just want change for the sake of change

Q who is available that is better then KC

A the 36 yr old josh mckown the better then avg qb

Q does stability matter ?

A no you can fire coaches after 2 years and some down on his luck last chance in hell guy will lead us to the promised land

Q how long will it take to have a new coach put in a new system

A oh easy one year because putting in a new system drafting the next mike glenon , and signing the next failed qb from another team means 12 wins right out of the block

Q what is exactly avg

A well stats really dont matter , my eyes say it all we should build with the has been qb and draft the next secret squirrel qb that i havent researched at all

do some of you people hear yourselves . you make a statement and when asked to take a stand and name a name you dont know "just some mystery guy " by god that mystery guy is out there though

i really hate snyder and cerrato but i will do things their way because i know no better

look its ok to say DAD i dont agree with you but geez can you bring more to the table then "i hope we miracle it in " ? the force will do it , blind faith works for me . is that all you have and you expect me to say "wow " you are so right what if CAT really meant dog ?

 

[j_y19]

Change for change's sake rarely works. In theory, it sounds great that there could be talented HC candidates out there, but in practice, until you can actually identify a couple, then stay with what you have and see if they can continue to grow into the job. Why swap one inexperienced coordinator for another if you arent sure it is an upgrade?

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Why is it, every one who seems to want Gruden fired and Cousins gone... also thought Griffin should have gotten another year to fuck this team over?? Seriously.... Most of the people calling for their heads week one fall into this group. Now you are sitting here saying you really think that we could actually improve by firing Gruden after year two and looking for another QB and think it will take less than 3 years to recover?? Who was the last NEW HC to come in and actually improve on his team for more than a fluke season?? The best way to build a team is stability. The best way to continually fuck up a team is constantly changing coaches and players every two years.

Actually if you look at the ones who are considered the top head coaches in the NFL they are retreads that were not considered to be top notch when they initially took their jobs. Belichick did pretty poorly with the Browns. Carroll didn't do well with two other NFL teams prior to leading the Seahawks (he did great at USC but that is no guarantee for success in the NFL). Kubiak is now leading the Broncos after being forced out in Houston. Ditto for Rivera & the Panthers.

There is no magic formula for hiring a HC. Also - the reason for some of the Redskins failures in this area is not strictly because of a lack of candidates. It is mainly because they picked the wrong guys. BTW - Gruden was a hot commodity when they selected him a few years ago. You also have to remember Marty - he was a top notch candidate when he was hired. The Skins mistake was getting rid of him in a power struggle.

Having said that I really have no issue in retaining Gruden assuming that they show some progress moving forward & don't lose just about every game. Barry - on the other hand - is another matter. If this defense plays this poorly for the remainder of the season then I say without question get rid of that guy.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Dad,

No worries. I still have faith in SM to fix this situation over the long haul. They will likely retain Gruden but make other significant changes over the offseason. Also - try & understand the feelings of this fanbase. We have all been frustrated for many, many years. It is understandable that people will be emotional & likely say things that don't make sense. This is mainly done out of passion for the team & shear frustration. I would give some folks a pass on this.

You can't expect these debates to always be calm and strictly related to facts. Eventually - most people will come around & understand the facts. One day we will all be watching a consistently successful Redskins team (assuming we are all still alive). HTTR

 

[j_y19]

Actually if you look at the ones who are considered the top head coaches in the NFL they are retreads that were not considered to be top notch when they initially took their jobs. Belichick did pretty poorly with the Browns. Carroll didn't do well with two other NFL teams prior to leading the Seahawks (he did great at USC but that is no guarantee for success in the NFL). Kubiak is now leading the Broncos after being forced out in Houston. Ditto for Rivera & the Panthers.

There is no magic formula for hiring a HC. Also - the reason for some of the Redskins failures in this area is not strictly because of a lack of candidates. It is mainly because they picked the wrong guys. BTW - Gruden was a hot commodity when they selected him a few years ago. You also have to remember Marty - he was a top notch candidate when he was hired. The Skins mistake was getting rid of him in a power struggle.

Having said that I really have no issue in retaining Gruden assuming that they show some progress moving forward & don't lose just about every game. Barry - on the other hand - is another matter. If this defense plays this poorly for the remainder of the season then I say without question get rid of that guy.

If anything, your observation lends itself to believe that maybe these retreads were fired too soon. They were good coaches, just needed the time to put together their team and implement their plans and grow into the HC role. Which is another reason why dumping Gruden so soon may be short sided. Because lets be real, he came into a terrible situation where their is a lack of discipline, a historically meddlesome owner and a real lack of talent from the players.

Again, I have my questions and concerns about Gruden. But I also believe that he hasn't really had a fair chance.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

If anything, your observation lends itself to believe that maybe these retreads were fired too soon. They were good coaches, just needed the time to put together their team and implement their plans and grow into the HC role. Which is another reason why dumping Gruden so soon may be short sided. Because lets be real, he came into a terrible situation where their is a lack of discipline, a historically meddlesome owner and a real lack of talent from the players.

Again, I have my questions and concerns about Gruden. But I also believe that he hasn't really had a fair chance.

Again - I am not advocating getting rid of Gruden. I am just pointing out that this idea that the Redskins would never be able to find a decent replacement is flawed at best. IMO - there should always be as many suitable candidates as there are openings. The key is making the right choice & the Redskins have made poor choices in this area in the past (probably since guys like Snyder & Cerrato were making the choices) - not simply because suitable candidates did not exist.

 

[Sharkinva]

Again - I am not advocating getting rid of Gruden. I am just pointing out that this idea that the Redskins would never be able to find a decent replacement is flawed at best. IMO - there should always be as many suitable candidates as there are openings. The key is making the right choice & the Redskins have made poor choices in this area in the past (probably since guys like Snyder & Cerrato were making the choices) - not simply because suitable candidates did not exist.

A suitable candidate has to also be given time to get his plan and his guys in place. While we can debate the pros and cons of if an upgrade might be available. I think we all would have to realize, a new coach coming in means a three year process based on where the team would likely stand if Gruden is fired.

 

[ehb5]

i love debating people like this

Q who can you get that is better

A i dont know it isnt my job to know i just want change for the sake of change
Never said for the sake of change. And I'm sorry I'm not in the meetings and interviews. What exactly would you like me to do about that?
Q who is available that is better then KC

A the 36 yr old josh mckown the better then avg qb
Never said this either.
Q does stability matter ?

A no you can fire coaches after 2 years and some down on his luck last chance in hell guy will lead us to the promised land
Never said this either.
Q how long will it take to have a new coach put in a new system

A oh easy one year because putting in a new system drafting the next mike glenon , and signing the next failed qb from another team means 12 wins right out of the block
Sure ignore past examples.
Q what is exactly avg

A well stats really dont matter , my eyes say it all we should build with the has been qb and draft the next secret squirrel qb that i havent researched at all

Never even came close to saying that crap about the stats and my eyes lol.

do some of you people hear yourselves . you make a statement and when asked to take a stand and name a name you dont know "just some mystery guy " by god that mystery guy is out there though
Named a few names and admitted there probably isn't much out there but yea just continue to ignore that buddy.
i really hate snyder and cerrato but i will do things their way because i know no better
Not doing things their way but ok.
look its ok to say DAD i dont agree with you but geez can you bring more to the table then "i hope we miracle it in " ? the force will do it , blind faith works for me . is that all you have and you expect me to say "wow " you are so right what if CAT really meant dog ?

This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen. I mean I don't know if you've never actually read anything I've written or if your reading comprehension is actually that bad but goodness. You just went on a rant based on false statements.

How bout you go back and ACTUALLY read what I have said, be honest about it and don't try to change what I said so you can argue but argue what I actually said and then get back to me. Sound good?

 

[j_y19]

Again - I am not advocating getting rid of Gruden. I am just pointing out that this idea that the Redskins would never be able to find a decent replacement is flawed at best. IMO - there should always be as many suitable candidates as there are openings. The key is making the right choice & the Redskins have made poor choices in this area in the past (probably since guys like Snyder & Cerrato were making the choices) - not simply because suitable candidates did not exist.

First I understand you, and ehb5, aren't advocating dumping Gruden. And I also understand and agree that we have done a poor job of finding suitable candidates as well as agree that suitable candidates probably do exist. Where we diverge is our ability to land these suitable candidates. I maintain that our history of going through coaches will severely hamper our ability to land these suitable candidates. The good ones will have options and I have to believe we are their last choice. Let's face it, we only landed Gruden because he had no other offers and we still had to give him a 5 year guaranteed deal, which is highly unusual for an unproven HC. Consequently, if we were to dump Gruden after 2 years, we only lend credence to the wide spread belief that this has historically been the worst job for a coach in the league over the last 15 years. Primarily because we have had an impatient owner who never gives a HC a chance to implement his plan, without meddling from the FO, and then gets dumped when failure happens in the first few years.

Think if you were looking to switch jobs. Would you take a job with a company that is known to be headed by a micromanager who fires employees before they can prove their capabilities? Unless you were desperate, probably not.

 

[skinzfan]

The Redskins are a 6-10 team this year if Beiicheck was the coach and Brady was the QB. There is a lack of talent across the board. Firing Gruden and benching Cousins doesn't help much.

My fear is that Snyder imposes his will and gives up the house to sign Matthew Stafford in the offseason.

 

[ehb5]

First I understand you, and ehb5, aren't advocating dumping Gruden. And I also understand and agree that we have done a poor job of finding suitable candidates as well as agree that suitable candidates probably do exist. Where we diverge is our ability to land these suitable candidates. I maintain that our history of going through coaches will severely hamper our ability to land these suitable candidates. The good ones will have options and I have to believe we are their last choice. Let's face it, we only landed Gruden because he had no other offers and we still had to give him a 5 year guaranteed deal, which is highly unusual for an unproven HC. Consequently, if we were to dump Gruden after 2 years, we only lend credence to the wide spread belief that this has historically been the worst job for a coach in the league over the last 15 years. Primarily because we have had an impatient owner who never gives a HC a chance to implement his plan, without meddling from the FO, and then gets dumped when failure happens in the first few years.

Think if you were looking to switch jobs. Would you take a job with a company that is known to be headed by a micromanager who fires employees before they can prove their capabilities? Unless you were desperate, probably not.

I could use more posts like this around here. You actually read what I wrote lol.

Im sure constantly firing coaches does have a negative effect and influence coaches coming here but I think it's overstated a little and I think if you know you have a bad coach you get rid of him dont keep him for feigned stability. That said, the jury is still out on gruden.

 

[ehb5]

The Redskins are a 6-10 team this year if Beiicheck was the coach and Brady was the QB. There is a lack of talent across the board. Firing Gruden and benching Cousins doesn't help much.

My fear is that Snyder imposes his will and gives up the house to sign Matthew Stafford in the offseason.

We'd win at least 10 games with bellicheck and brady

 

[gkekoa]

The problem with this team is athleticism. That problem is related to not having our own draft picks because we have traded them away. We are still missing 2 firsts and a second from the RGME trade and only time can replace it. Players in the first two rounds have both athleticism and talent coming from the collegiate ranks (typically) that far surpass those of the remaining rounds. If you see no improvement from Gruden over the last couple of years, I do not believe you are looking closely enough; however, if he hasn't improved this team, fire him.

As for QB, KC has proven enough to warrant another season and is obviously improving. Let RGME walk, get our compensatory pick for him (probably a third rounder bc somebody will pay and play him), and if QB is best available at that spot in the draft you take him.

 

[skinsdad62]

Dad,

No worries. I still have faith in SM to fix this situation over the long haul. They will likely retain Gruden but make other significant changes over the offseason. Also - try & understand the feelings of this fanbase. We have all been frustrated for many, many years. It is understandable that people will be emotional & likely say things that don't make sense. This is mainly done out of passion for the team & shear frustration. I would give some folks a pass on this.

You can't expect these debates to always be calm and strictly related to facts. Eventually - most people will come around & understand the facts. One day we will all be watching a consistently successful Redskins team (assuming we are all still alive). HTTR

i have faith as well but geez if you are going to debate a position on something at least put your ideas out there with solutions before you bash someone elses

he then goes on to talk about "reading comprehension " problems like he is the master of the english language

he point blank said it wasnt his job to find a coach and didnt have anyone in mind (paraphrasing ) he acknowledged it was a cop out . what "reading comprehension" problem is there ? his own words said he didnt have a solution . how does one take that other then he wants change for the sake of change ?

he said mckown was better in a thread even though stats and age dont back that up as well as records how am i supposed to take that . where i come from avg is avg and its quantifiable

its all about gruden sucks , KC sucks blah blah blah . gee thanks for the input

 

[ehb5]

i have faith as well but geez if you are going to debate a position on something at least put your ideas out there with solutions before you bash someone elses

he then goes on to talk about "reading comprehension " problems like he is the master of the english language

he point blank said it wasnt his job to find a coach and didnt have anyone in mind (paraphrasing ) he acknowledged it was a cop out . what "reading comprehension" problem is there ? his own words said he didnt have a solution . how does one take that other then he wants change for the sake of change ?

he said mckown was better in a thread even though stats and age dont back that up as well as records how am i supposed to take that . where i come from avg is avg and its quantifiable

its all about gruden sucks , KC sucks blah blah blah . gee thanks for the input

This is comical. I don't bash anybody's ideas. I have literally said a million times that keeping Gruden and Cousins could end up being the right choice. In fact its pretty likely it will be. The problem is you jumping on me for daring to say that MAYBE we should explore other options first. How dare I voice another opinion, right?

Im no master of the English language, but I can at least read and not put words in other people's mouths.

As for the coaching thing its really not that difficult to understand. You can't deny there are potentially good HCs out there. For me to predict which ones they are without more information is insanity. You couldn't do it either.

I also never said McCown was "better." I said he was "at least as good" as Cousins has been.
Josh McCown has a 95.2 Passer Rating, 11 TDs, 4 INTs, 7.6 Y/Att, and a 52.8 QBR.
Kirk Cousins has an 82.9 Passer Rating, 10 TDs, 9 INTs, 6.3 Y/Att and a 56.2 QBR.

So you're wrong to say stats and records dont back that up. On top of that - you do realize that age doesnt have anything to do with which one is better, right? Please tell me you know that.

So as much as you love to say you're looking at the stats - you're not.
You're either extremely "misguided" or just outright lying to try and defend yourself.

 

[skinsdad62]

This is comical. I don't bash anybody's ideas. I have literally said a million times that keeping Gruden and Cousins could end up being the right choice. In fact its pretty likely it will be. The problem is you jumping on me for daring to say that MAYBE we should explore other options first. How dare I voice another opinion, right?

Im no master of the English language, but I can at least read and not put words in other people's mouths.

As for the coaching thing its really not that difficult to understand. You can't deny there are potentially good HCs out there. For me to predict which ones they are without more information is insanity. You couldn't do it either.

I also never said McCown was "better." I said he was "at least as good" as Cousins has been.
Josh McCown has a 95.2 Passer Rating, 11 TDs, 4 INTs, 7.6 Y/Att, and a 52.8 QBR.
Kirk Cousins has an 82.9 Passer Rating, 10 TDs, 9 INTs, 6.3 Y/Att and a 56.2 QBR.

So you're wrong to say stats and records dont back that up. On top of that - you do realize that age doesnt have anything to do with which one is better, right? Please tell me you know that.

So as much as you love to say you're looking at the stats - you're not.
You're either extremely "misguided" or just outright lying to try and defend yourself.

i dont need to fib about anything . do i have to go back through another quote a thon to make my point yet again ? i certainly can if needs be

and the stat that is most telling is the QBR a rating of all things a qb does