state of the roster

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

BTW: it makes a difference because we're all fans of this team, some have the propensity to become attached to players, others follow the company line (use the Ryan Clark experiment if you must) and some like myself are cutthroat bastards. We call it like it is and make no room for sentimentality.

If you must use P. Garcon as the example, so be it. In 2013, many here touted him as a beast, a sure top notch wideout in the NFL, Then with the addition of DJax, became surprised when he fell to the #2 guy. Now with the addition of a top notch GM (we hope) the team is in a rebuilding mode. How many of the Garcon is a top notch guy supporters would be shocked and angered if he only returned a late third or 4th round pick in trade? Not me!!!Why? because I see him for what his entire career said he's been, a pretty good supporting player who's had a singular best season on a terrible team that had no other option in the passing game except him. So, stop fooling yourself, he's a career #2 who's value is falling.

BTW: I'll take 11 very good Db's and play them against your 11 Garcons, and shut you down every time.

garcon is 3 rd wr at best he will not single hand win games for you

 

[skinsdad62]

again i dont see how we improve with roberts or grant in there over garcon . he has led the team in receiving 3 straight years setting team records in the process with substandard qb play

its your right to be cut throat and believing you are "calling it as it is " but that is in your eyes only and that doesnt make you right any more then i am right

first you need a team that is willing to take his salary . not likely . 2nd the guy is 28 yrs old and we are writing him off at 31 ? by the time we need to replace him we should be able to draft a guy to do that

3rd ryan grant has to show me a heck of a lot more before i am ready to pencil him in for 70 catches a year.

i would simply hold on to garcon till the end of next season and revisit it

 

[j_y19]

again i dont see how we improve with roberts or grant in there over garcon . he has led the team in receiving 3 straight years setting team records in the process with substandard qb play

its your right to be cut throat and believing you are "calling it as it is " but that is in your eyes only and that doesnt make you right any more then i am right

first you need a team that is willing to take his salary . not likely . 2nd the guy is 28 yrs old and we are writing him off at 31 ? by the time we need to replace him we should be able to draft a guy to do that

3rd ryan grant has to show me a heck of a lot more before i am ready to pencil him in for 70 catches a year.

i would simply hold on to garcon till the end of next season and revisit it

Ah, the voice of reason........

 

[martinez]

garcon is 3 rd wr at best he will not single hand win games for you

is this sarcasm?

 

[Stymietee]

Sty you have been taking shots and suggesting Garcon is not good enough, should be traded etc. etc for some time now. I remember one game in particular where you started your rant against Garcon with a "where is Garcon" when he caught 4 passes in short order. It isn't hard to tell when someone is dead against a player or defends a player beyond the pale. That is fine, it is your right to like who you do. Clearly a number of us think Garcon is worth keeping. He still lead the team in receptions despite the QB play. I think paired with DJax the team has a good set of receivers. Sadly we haven't had a QB they deserve to play with.

Why didn't you finish your statement? You know the line that began with.......Sty you have been taking shots and suggesting Garcon is not good enough, should be traded etc. etc, for some time now. The end of this line should have been......in relation to the lofty status others have deemed him to be. That would make it a fairer statement.
This whole thing exploded when I originally took an opposing view that many here had of him. I believed that anyone with an objective view of his historical record and status would see him as the second fiddle on a roster that many believed at the time had the greatest QB in history in Indy. There's no disputing this, because in fact that is what he was. He comes here and almost overnight becomes our game changer, why? What skills did he have, undiscovered by the Colts, that would put fear in the opposition and be displayed with a QB that no one would mention in the same breath as Manning?

OK, he caught a lot of balls and had a banner season, but honestly, if your second best option is S. Moss an aged veteran who could get open but unable to hold onto the ball, the only people surprised were the one's who saw a record setting season not translate into more victories. So what happens? A miracle!! The Philadelphia Eagles release D. Jackson and he lands in DC.....Oh my God.....the excitement is palatable, a very good running game coupled with arguably the best WR trio in the game!! Really??? Well Jackson did his part, by making our QB's look better than they were, but where was our stud? The record setter? The guy? He was exactly where others like myself had expected him to be.

Here's a bit of truth that many have accepted on this forum from our new GM, but not from the voice the preceeded him. We are going to get Washington players, develop Washington players, and build and win with Washington players. When I suggest that the team should trade P. Garcon on a team that has vowed to rebuild with their own players, I question those who cannot see that current players that were former players elsewhere are not in the future plans of this team. The only question is when is the best time to maximize their trade value. For the 28 year old P. Garcon that time is right now.

 

[Stymietee]

again i dont see how we improve with roberts or grant in there over garcon . he has led the team in receiving 3 straight years setting team records in the process with substandard qb play

its your right to be cut throat and believing you are "calling it as it is " but that is in your eyes only and that doesnt make you right any more then i am right

first you need a team that is willing to take his salary . not likely . 2nd the guy is 28 yrs old and we are writing him off at 31 ? by the time we need to replace him we should be able to draft a guy to do that

3rd ryan grant has to show me a heck of a lot more before i am ready to pencil him in for 70 catches a year.

i would simply hold on to garcon till the end of next season and revisit it

Taking a short sighted view huh Dad? Maybe the plan includes drafting our own players like Grant and ridding the team of guys like Garcon, Roberts and yes even Ultimately Jackson. In context...... Gruden has made it clear that he wants bigger receivers, outside of Hankerson, no one on this team meets that criteria. Staying in context, the new GM has vowed to stock the team with our own players? What exactly do you think that means for a roster full of guys bought in from elsewhere? Please don't play the "all" card I never said all of them. I would not be surprised if 3 to 5 of them are still here 2 to 3 years out. Since this has become the P. Garcon page, keep in mind that the teams needs new talented blood, and the new GM has a propensity to find gems in later rounds, when wouldit be best to trade Garcon? Now when you could probably get a 3rd or 4th round pick, or a year or two out when his value falls to 6th or 7th round? Newsflash to fans of this team, winning is NOT the priority now, rebuilding is!! Don't take this the wrong way, wins are always nice, but I don't know anyone that is not clear that the team is in full rebuild mode.

 

[Stymietee]

Does anybody here who sees him as a game changer....a beast.... a stud.....the guy, use your own term, really believe that a trade would garner a 1st or 2nd round pick that supports your view of him? Anyone?....Bueller?

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Does anybody here who sees him as a game changer....a beast.... a stud.....the guy, use your own term, really believe that a trade would garner a 1st or 2nd round pick that supports your view of him? Anyone?....Bueller?

I'm walking in this convo with an unloaded gun, so...Garcon recently led the league in receptions and broke Hall of Fame Art Monk's record. In 2012, he looked unstoppable. With all the turmoil this year, he's played 110%. Once the QB(or new QB), and offensive coordinator are on the same page...he should RETURN to a game changer especially with DJAX taking up double teams. However if we go CURRENT value, he's an average receiver who could be traded for a 4th...."cheaper to keep'em"

 

[skinsdad62]

again i dont care what you can get for him . a 3rd is about right and i doubt we get the value he brings to the team

there are plenty of players , WRS , if you will that would allow us to get gruden's type. hankerson and moss leave 2 vacancies right off the bat

and stymie would you pay 19.5 mil for 2 years on garcon ? you say he is a bum , a second rate guy so you expect another team will pay that in a trade AND give up youth ?

 

[Sportster 72]

Why didn't you finish your statement? You know the line that began with.......Sty you have been taking shots and suggesting Garcon is not good enough, should be traded etc. etc, for some time now. The end of this line should have been......in relation to the lofty status others have deemed him to be. That would make it a fairer statement.
This whole thing exploded when I originally took an opposing view that many here had of him. I believed that anyone with an objective view of his historical record and status would see him as the second fiddle on a roster that many believed at the time had the greatest QB in history in Indy. There's no disputing this, because in fact that is what he was. He comes here and almost overnight becomes our game changer, why? What skills did he have, undiscovered by the Colts, that would put fear in the opposition and be displayed with a QB that no one would mention in the same breath as Manning?

OK, he caught a lot of balls and had a banner season, but honestly, if your second best option is S. Moss an aged veteran who could get open but unable to hold onto the ball, the only people surprised were the one's who saw a record setting season not translate into more victories. So what happens? A miracle!! The Philadelphia Eagles release D. Jackson and he lands in DC.....Oh my God.....the excitement is palatable, a very good running game coupled with arguably the best WR trio in the game!! Really??? Well Jackson did his part, by making our QB's look better than they were, but where was our stud? The record setter? The guy? He was exactly where others like myself had expected him to be.

Here's a bit of truth that many have accepted on this forum from our new GM, but not from the voice the preceeded him. We are going to get Washington players, develop Washington players, and build and win with Washington players. When I suggest that the team should trade P. Garcon on a team that has vowed to rebuild with their own players, I question those who cannot see that current players that were former players elsewhere are not in the future plans of this team. The only question is when is the best time to maximize their trade value. For the 28 year old P. Garcon that time is right now.

I'll finish the rest of my statement instead of you speaking for me. I think you are dead wrong and have no basis for what you say. I think your comments show that you have little understanding of what a good football player is. However you are entitled to be wrong so enjoy.

 

[Stymietee]

I'll finish the rest of my statement instead of you speaking for me. I think you are dead wrong and have no basis for what you say. I think your comments show that you have little understanding of what a good football player is. However you are entitled to be wrong so enjoy.

Show me one thing that I've said about him that was/is not or has not been proven true, apologies are not necessary, we can at least agree to disagree.

 

[Sportster 72]

We can agree to disagree. I don't think he will be on the roster next year though because of his cap number.

 

[Stymietee]

again i dont care what you can get for him . a 3rd is about right and i doubt we get the value he brings to the team

there are plenty of players , WRS , if you will that would allow us to get gruden's type. hankerson and moss leave 2 vacancies right off the bat

and stymie would you pay 19.5 mil for 2 years on garcon ? you say he is a bum , a second rate guy so you expect another team will pay that in a trade AND give up youth ?

You seemed determined to argue against yourself and support my position. First, let's be clear on my evaluation of him. Nowhere have I've ever stated what you accuse me of. On numerous occasions I've stated that he is a very good player, just Not the type player that many here believe him to be, nor the player that this team overpriced and overpaid. Nowhere in history does very good translate into (your accusations), a bum, nor a second rate guy.

Now about that 19.2 million dollars over the next 2 years.......would you pay him that much? I certainly would not and I seriously doubt that any other team would either.......except one. I wonder why? Sounds like at some point this team will have to pay for its' overhyped exuberances. The sooner done the better, dead money hurts, but not nearly as much as it does when a team fails to properly value their players, and finds itself ultimately playing out that contract hoping for immediate returns at the expense of future development or resolving itself to dead cap money by reworking that contract over a longer period of time.

The team overpaid the guy, he's being paid in the #12 slot at his craft, which means that if he was a restricted free agent, compensation would be #1 draft picks. Now this is where it gets interesting. You asked the question, would I pay him 19.2 million over the next two years, I believe the answer supports my evaluation of him.

 

[Stymietee]

We can agree to disagree. I don't think he will be on the roster next year though because of his cap number.

In the event that others are reading this, let me reiterate, that this is the best time to trade him. He's 28....29 in august, his cap hit increases a year out, unless his contract is reworked. I personally believe him to be a pretty good player, who's talents are wasted on a team clearly in full rebuild mode. I am also convinced that his value to a team that sees itself as one or two players away from being a contender would balk at a trade proposal like this, but ultimately pay for a 28-29 year old Garcon if they believed him to be one of those missing pieces, yet pay considerably less for a 29-30 Garcon a year from now.
I get the whole, let's win some games now and I firmly believe that we will, provided that we maximize our tradeable assets and, that's a big "and".....draft/sign players who come in pushing for starting roles, rather than guys who become serviceable after a couple of seasons being developed. We've had 15 years of that nonsense. This is why I had been so hardcore determined to convince my fellows here that Allen had to go and a real, dedicated GM be hired.

 

[martinez]

trading garcon for any less than a 2nd round pick would be dumb.

 

[Sportster 72]

I think the only thing to debate here is the cap number. If the Redskins can fit Garcon under the cap without cutting one of their other stars (LOL) then he should stay. He certainly is better than many players currently on the roster. What is more of an overpay, $9 or $10 million for a productive WR who is one of the best blocking receivers in the league or $6 million dollars for a QB who struggled mightily last year. My guess is more money is wasted on the QB than the WR and the WR could help any or all of the struggling QBs.

I'll finish by saying that I believe if one of them isn't going to be here next year it will be Garcon but I don't agree with that decision if it goes down that way. I think it is way too early to figure that out right now though.

 

[j_y19]

In the event that others are reading this, let me reiterate, that this is the best time to trade him. He's 28....29 in august, his cap hit increases a year out, unless his contract is reworked. I personally believe him to be a pretty good player, who's talents are wasted on a team clearly in full rebuild mode. I am also convinced that his value to a team that sees itself as one or two players away from being a contender would balk at a trade proposal like this, but ultimately pay for a 28-29 year old Garcon if they believed him to be one of those missing pieces, yet pay considerably less for a 29-30 Garcon a year from now.
I get the whole, let's win some games now and I firmly believe that we will, provided that we maximize our tradeable assets and, that's a big "and".....draft/sign players who come in pushing for starting roles, rather than guys who become serviceable after a couple of seasons being developed. We've had 15 years of that nonsense. This is why I had been so hardcore determined to convince my fellows here that Allen had to go and a real, dedicated GM be hired.

Sty, so I misunderstood your position. I was under the impression from previous posts that you were down on Garcon as a player, primarily due the the #1 vs #2 argument (which never really made sense to me). If, however, you are evaluating his worth to the team as a business decision, then I am much more sympathetic to your argument. Garcon is a good player, but one needs to constantly evaluate every player and their value to the team vs their cost. As part of that evaluation, one needs to consider the replacement cost. This is where it gets tricky for Garcon. While we could cut Garcon or trade him, we would be hard pressed to find a player to replace his production (in both blocking and receiving) without spending close to what we are going to spend on him now. Is Grant a future potential? Maybe, but there is no way that we can expect him to account for 70-100 receptions/year at this point. So we need to wade into the FA market. This will be costly. Moreover, we now have created another hole for which we have to fill.

Having said all of this, I would consider trading Garcon, but for nothing less than a #2 pick. Given his salary, I don't a trade happening. However, there are a few teams out there that could use a good, solid WR and have the money to spend (seattle comes to mind). If we can't get a #2, then I keep him and try and renegotiate his contract.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

28 or 29 is not that old for a WR. We are not talking about RB. Several of the current best WRs in the NFL right now are right around that age & I expect most of them to continue to be productive for the next 5+ years. Also - take a look at the all time NFL leaders in receptions. Just about all of them were extremely productive well into their 30s. This would be especially true for someone like Garcon who doesn't primarily rely on his speed (as opposed to say Jackson). You also just can't assume that someone like Grant will play just as well (hope so but who knows).

Having said this I am good with whatever decision the current GM makes in this area. If he decides to keep Garcon - great. If he decides he should trade him - fine - no problem by me. People need to be careful in making statements suggesting that only the current Redskins would pay such & such for certain players. I truly believe that this is a different regime & those days are behind this team for the most part. Only time will tell.

 

[skinsdad62]

i dont see where we get value by trading him at this point a mid round pick isnt going to cut it so you end up cutting the guy so a team can pick him up and reap the benefits of his production

we dont need to cut him or trade him we need better o/line/qb play