Fucking LOL at the 49ers offseason

[HaroldSeattle]

dredinis21,
You can't credit Baalke with that draft (2010) just because he stepped in right before the draft, if that draft had been a bust, who would you hang it on? Scott McCloughan of course, after all by that time he had done all ground work and most likely had his draft board up. McCloughan I might add is the GM who drafted
Frank Gore
Vernon Davis
Patrick Willis
Joe Staley
Ray McDonald
Dashon Goldson
Tarell Brown

If anyone gets credit for the 2010 draft it's McCloughan, not some guy who stepped in right before the draft, but I understand why you would like to add this draft to Baalke resume...it's better then any draft Baalke ever had.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

dredinis21,
You can't credit Baalke with that draft (2010) just because he stepped in right before the draft, if that draft had been a bust, who would you hang it on? Scott McCloughan of course, after all by that time he had done all ground work and most likely had his draft board up. McCloughan I might add is the GM who drafted
Frank Gore
Vernon Davis
Patrick Willis
Joe Staley
Ray McDonald
Dashon Goldson
Tarell Brown

If anyone gets credit for the 2010 draft it's McCloughan, not some guy who stepped in right before the draft, but I understand why you would like to add this draft to Baalke resume...it's better then any draft Baalke ever had.

As I see it, Baalke and McCloughan both deserve considerable credit for 2010. Baalke's the guy who actually made the picks, so clearly he gets a fair bit of credit. He was intimately involved in the process of setting up the draft board. Giving McCloughan 100% of the credit is as silly as giving him none of the credit (as Niner fans sometimes will). I can see giving McCloughan more of the credit for adding Davis and Iupati, but certainly the credit for Bowman has to go largely to Baalke. And Baalke has shown that he's hardly a guy to go by other people's evaluations of players. If he didn't agree with McCloughan's board, I'm sure he changed it. Particularly at the top.

As far as McCloughan, I think his run is underrated. He added a lot of talent to this team - just made a post about that last week. Frankly, the 2007 draft is one of the best in NFL history IMO. That said, he had his weaknesses, too. The 2008 draft is right up there with the 2012 draft in contention for worst in franchise history.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

As I see it, Baalke and McCloughan both deserve considerable credit for 2010. Baalke's the guy who actually made the picks, so clearly he gets a fair bit of credit. He was intimately involved in the process of setting up the draft board. Giving McCloughan 100% of the credit is as silly as giving him none of the credit (as Niner fans sometimes will). I can see giving McCloughan more of the credit for adding Davis and Iupati, but certainly the credit for Bowman has to go largely to Baalke. And Baalke has shown that he's hardly a guy to go by other people's evaluations of players. If he didn't agree with McCloughan's board, I'm sure he changed it. Particularly at the top.

As far as McCloughan, I think his run is underrated. He added a lot of talent to this team - just made a post about that last week. Frankly, the 2007 draft is one of the best in NFL history IMO. That said, he had his weaknesses, too. The 2008 draft is right up there with the 2012 draft in contention for worst in franchise history.

The fact is as fans, we just don't know who should get credit for what. So like I said before...start with the 2011 draft when Baalke was the GM and Harbaugh was the coach.

 

[WizardHawk]

LaMichael James absent at 49ers' workouts - NFL.com
James is too cool for school.




Knows his days are numbered no doubt.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Schneider and Baalke have arguably been the two best GMs in the league lately. Claiming that either of them is terrible, or that either one is head and shoulders above the other is frankly dumb. It's possible the Hawks will get more value out of their #32 and #64 picks than the Niners get out of #30, #56, #61, #77, #94, and #100, but I don't know many people outside the greater Seattle metro area who would take that bet. Frankly, I don't know many people in the Seattle area who would take that bet, either.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The fact is as fans, we just don't know who should get credit for what. So like I said before...start with the 2011 draft when Baalke was the GM and Harbaugh was the coach.

That's a convenient way to cut two pro bowlers and another very solid player out of Baalke's numbers. Hell, even Kyle Williams and Philip Adams have to be considered good value picks, and it's pretty clear McCloughan had little to no influence over those selections.

The guy who makes the picks gets primary credit for them. That's obvious.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Wiz, so you continue showing why you are an asshole. Nothing surprising. The funny thing is how you decide to spin this as if you are wearing teflon. As far as 2 over 6 vs 3 over 8, you do realize that I copied that from a convo YOU were having with another poster. It was not until another poster, STBR, actually corrected the numbers that you circled back as if you knew that mistake already. But you continue to be a dick about this point although, you too, were in the wrong. So if I'm slow, does that make you slow with a superiority complex? Btw, backtracking from your initial argument to then point out that it doesn't matter what round they are drafted in, because good players are good players, is absolute horseshit and has NOTHING to do with your original argument....more of a cop-out, bitch ass way to explain your original arrogant argument then directly giving your reasons why.
To then spin it into a dick wagging competition as to who drafted better overall is also a bit misleading because much of the Niners squad that have taken the Niners to the playoffs the last three years have been home grown players that have been drafted or picked up as UDFA, much like the Hawks. Look at our roster? How many impact players were bought vs. drafted? I'm guessing roughly around the same amount as your team. You guys won one more important game then we did during that time. Congrats on that. The rest of garbage you have continue to point in my direction is unnecessary.
You want to talk ball? Just talk ball. I asked a question as to why you thought a certain way and you decided to play internet tough guy and talk down your nose to me. You certainly wouldn't talk this way to my face so why do it over the inter webs? But I'm sure this will somehow test your manhood so you will go ahead and call me slow or special again as if it matters. Whatever tickles your pickle I guess.

Harold, just so that we are clear and for accuracy's sake, Baalke ran our 2010 draft war room because our GM at the time was a drunken mess and stepped down just before the draft. So credit goes to Baalke for the 2010 draft as well, although Harbaugh wasn't in the room. With that said,

1st Rd
A. Davis
Iupati

2nd Rd
Mays

3rd Rd
Bowman

With that knowledge, it definitely slides the scale a bit because now you are talking two Pro Bowlers and a 24 yr old linchpin at RT out of 4 picks as well. Our 2012 draft will probably go down as one of the worst in Niner, if not NFL, history for sure. But 2010, 2011, and 2013 (premature but many Niner fans agreed with many of the moves Baalke made in that draft) were solid if we are talking the first 3 rounds...which was the point to this back and forth. Leak it further back and you will also see key figures in the structure of our team were also drafted in the mid/late rounds. We found a majority of our Pro Bowlers in the first 3 rounds going as far back as 2005, you guys have done it with the back end of the draft for sure.

Doublejive, I agree with most everything you said in your initial post...including LaMichael James being a waste of a pick. I said that on draft day and he has done nothing to move me from that position.

That's a convenient way to cut two pro bowlers and another very solid player out of Baalke's numbers. Hell, even Kyle Williams and Philip Adams have to be considered good value picks, and it's pretty clear McCloughan had little to no influence over those selections.

The guy who makes the picks gets primary credit for them. That's obvious.

Nope the dude reading off the list left by the guy ahead of him , does not get the credit. That's obvious.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

]That's a convenient way to cut two pro bowlers and another very solid player out of Baalke's numbers.[/B] Hell, even Kyle Williams and Philip Adams have to be considered good value picks, and it's pretty clear McCloughan had little to no influence over those selections.

The guy who makes the picks gets primary credit for them. That's obvious.

They are not his numbers, and honestly if that draft was a bust, would you still give Baalke the credit?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Nope the dude reading off the list left by the guy ahead of him , does not get the credit. That's obvious.

As said, if you have followed Baalke at all, it's pretty clear he wouldn't just read off McCloughan's list. His ability to completely re-create the draft board would have been limited, but I'm absolutely certain he would have made any changes in first round ranking that he deemed necessary. I'm also absolutely certain he knew everything he needed to about Davis and Iupati. He also traded up to land Davis, so clearly he did more than just read off a list.

And yes, to answer your subsequent question, I would fault Baalke if that draft had produced a bunch of busts. Of course I would. As said, he's the guy who made the picks. Just as his credit is somewhat tempered by circumstances, so too would criticism be tempered by circumstances. But he's the guy who made the moves and picked the players, so he's responsible for them. I hold him responsible for the Mays pick. There were rumors after the draft that Singletary pressured him to make that pick, but as said repeatedly above, Baalke is the guy who selected him, and he deserves much of the blame for his failure. Similarly, he deserves much of the credit for the success of Davis, Iupati, and Bowman.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

January 4 2011 is when Baalke was hired as GM, there for that is when his history as GM starts period.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

January 4 2011 is when Baalke was hired as GM, there for that is when his history as GM starts period.

That's asinine. Who selected the players we added during those nine months? Apparently they just magically appeared on the roster?

And this directly contradicts your earlier claim about McCloughan's success. McCloughan wasn't named GM until January 2008. Under your approach, he doesn't deserve credit for any of the players you mentioned.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

That's asinine. Who selected the players we added during those nine months? Apparently they just magically appeared on the roster?

And this directly contradicts your earlier claim about McCloughan's success. McCloughan wasn't named GM until January 2008. Under your approach, he doesn't deserve credit for any of the players you mentioned.

Don't really care about giving McCloughan credit. When you judge a GM for his history as a GM, you start with when he was hired as GM, not before.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Don't really care about giving McCloughan credit. When you judge a GM for his history as a GM, you start with when he was hired as GM, not before.

I'm not judging his history as GM. I'm judging his history leading the 49ers' draft. And that includes the 2010 draft.

 

[WizardHawk]

Really? Still arguing over when to give SF credit for what draft choices? lol. Their entire top of the 2011 class are bound to be felons including their QB. James is a bust. They have zeros enough to not worry about their first or not first class under baalke.

The proof of RS/PC over their group is the trophy in my avatar. And it's going to stay that way for the foreseeable future until they find a better QB.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I'm not judging his history as GM. I'm judging his history leading the 49ers' draft. And that includes the 2010 draft.

Let's be honest here, you don't actually know exactly what part he played prior to being GM, so let's stop that line OK?

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Give me late round steals over early round steals/wins any day of the week.

I would take a completely different stance without the new CBA mind you. Top 3-5 picks ruined teams 5 years ago.

Thank god Seattle ditched Curry in a non-cap year.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Really? Still arguing over when to give SF credit for what draft choices? lol. Their entire top of the 2011 class are bound to be felons including their QB. James is a bust. They have zeros enough to not worry about their first or not first class under baalke.

The proof of RS/PC over their group is the trophy in my avatar. And it's going to stay that way for the foreseeable future until they find a better QB.

Felons can be great players. Seattle's full of druggies and cheaters, and is coached by a spineless coward, but they still have a Lombardi trophy.

We'll see what happens with Schneider's two picks versus Baalke's six. Perhaps we can revisit this conversation in a couple years.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Let's be honest here, you don't actually know exactly what part he played prior to being GM, so let's stop that line OK?

I know that he was the #1 personnel guy on the team. I know that after the draft, he was the one who ran the press conference talking about each of the drafted players. I know that the next year he was named the GM. So yes, I know that he was the driving force behind the decisions that were made in that draft.

Question: does John Schneider not deserve any credit for the drafts while he's been with the team? After all, we can never be certain how much input Carroll had over particular draft picks.

 

[WizardHawk]

Felons can be great players. Seattle's full of druggies and cheaters, and is coached by a spineless coward, but they still have a Lombardi trophy.

We'll see what happens with Schneider's two picks versus Baalke's six. Perhaps we can revisit this conversation in a couple years.

We will see what happens with all of Seattle's picks vs all of SF's picks. You guys can keep trying to cherry pick data, but we won't let you do it.

The draft is 7 rounds, not 3. Just because you can't push out 5th and 6th round pros the way Seattle can doesn't mean you can pretend they don't exist.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I know that he was the #1 personnel guy on the team. I know that after the draft, he was the one who ran the press conference talking about each of the drafted players. I know that the next year he was named the GM. So yes, I know that he was the driving force behind the decisions that were made in that draft.

Question: does John Schneider not deserve any credit for the drafts while he's been with the team? After all, we can never be certain how much input Carroll had over particular draft picks.

What you don't know for a fact is how many of those picks were his. Big difference in being a scout and being a GM. Conjecture that the 2010 draft was a Baalke draft is just conjecture and can not be counted as his history, no matter how much 49ers fans want to include it.

As far as JS and Pete, feel free to give Pete as much credit as you feel he deserves. He certainly has his say in the draft.