Cap to be raised

[Money]

Gronk actually plays tight end, though.

So you would have no problem with Gronk only making TE money while Graham would make WR money...even though Gronk (when healthy) is better than Graham?

I'm sorry, but a team can utilize their players however they feel will best win games. The Saints split out Sproles all the freakin time. It doesn't make Sproles a WR.

Again...with the evolution of the tight end position, I have no problem with them combining TEs with WRs. Until they do that, however, I do have a problem with a TE saying he should be paid like a WR. If there were specific guidelines as to what each positional player must and must not do, I might feel differently. As it is, player responsibilities are always changing in the always present effort to create mismatches.

 

[Midnightangel]

Why do you bring up TDs like they are reserved for WRs? I think your idea of what a TE is hasn't evolved with the position.

Graham's stats weren't as good as Gronk's were in 2011. Why is Graham worth Calvin Johnson money, but Gronk is worth half that? Seems to me Graham is worth Gronk money.

It just seems that if Graham has about the same yards as Megatron, and more TD's, then he should be getting Megatron money.

It's also a case for why, if he's tagged, he should be tagged as a WR. He's putting up WR numbers and yardage. He led all Saints receivers as well.

 

[JDM]

Gronk plays tight end, and does so nearly every snap.


Graham plays WR and does so more than he even is pretending to play TE. The only distinction between him and a WR is that the saints list him as a tight end, which is out of his control.


Huge and simple difference. He will win.

 

[Money]

Gronk plays tight end, and does so nearly every snap.


Graham plays WR and does so more than he even is pretending to play TE. The only distinction between him and a WR is that the saints list him as a tight end, which is out of his control.


Huge and simple difference. He will win.

Got it. So Graham is worth twice the money that Gronk is.

 

[Money]

It just seems that if Graham has about the same yards as Megatron, and more TD's, then he should be getting Megatron money.

It's also a case for why, if he's tagged, he should be tagged as a WR. He's putting up WR numbers and yardage. He led all Saints receivers as well.

Gronk puts up "WR numbers" and you two seem to be okay with him being paid less. Guys like Witten and Gates have put up "WR numbers" in the past...have they ever been paid like a WR?

 

[JDM]

The WR franchise number is 10 million. Gronk is making ~7 per. That's not double.

But if they want to franchise him, absolutely he should get 10mil. If they want to negotiate with him, then do so. They're the ones who made him a WR, so they are the ones who have to pay him WR money to franchise him. It's really simple.

 

[Money]

The WR franchise number is 10 million. Gronk is making ~7 per. That's not double.

But if they want to franchise him, absolutely he should get 10mil. If they want to negotiate with him, then do so. They're the ones who made him a WR, so they are the ones who have to pay him WR money to franchise him. It's really simple.

The WR tag number is actually $11.5mil, but that isn't what I was referencing. Midnight brought up the fact that Graham deserves Megatron money. Gronk (who many feel is better than Graham) makes about 45% of Megatron money.

BTW...they didn't "make him a WR", they just utilize him differently as a TE (just as they utilize Spoles differently as a RB).

 

[JDM]

They use him as a WR the vast majority of the time. If his primary position is WR (which is blatantly obvious), then franchising him as a tight end is (just as obviously) extremely unfair and an abuse of nothing more than his listed position. So he's fighting to have his listed position match the position he plays, and should win.


The actual dollar figure aren't even relevant. What is is that if the saints are going to use him as a WR, he has every right to be listed as one. He will win this.

 

[JDM]

Also Gronk could have easily gotten significantly more on the open market. He elected to provide a home team discount.

 

[Midnightangel]

Gronk puts up "WR numbers" and you two seem to be okay with him being paid less. Guys like Witten and Gates have put up "WR numbers" in the past...have they ever been paid like a WR?

If they agree to get paid 'X' amount of dollars, that's their choice.

The problem with the tag is that the Saints are forcing him to accept a certain amount of money when he clearly plays more like another position.

See what I'm saying here?

If CJ were in this position and you tagged him, he'd get the WR tag. Yes?

That's what I meant. If you're going to use the man as a WR, then he should get the WR tag - thus WR type money, or the same money CJ would get if he were in this position.

You said that teams can use their players any way they see fit. I agree, you just have to pay them accordingly.

Graham is not only their leading receiver, but one of the best receivers in the NFL. When you look at the people around him, they're not TE's - their WR's. Often he lines up - or is audibled out - to the slot position.

So, for purposes of the tag - he should be recognized as a WR.

 

[Money]

Also Gronk could have easily gotten significantly more on the open market. He elected to provide a home team discount.

He's the highest paid TE in the league...by a significant margin. He spun that as a "home team discount"? There sure are some gullible people up there in the northeast.

 

[Money]

If they agree to get paid 'X' amount of dollars, that's their choice.

The problem with the tag is that the Saints are forcing him to accept a certain amount of money when he clearly plays more like another position.

See what I'm saying here?

If CJ were in this position and you tagged him, he'd get the WR tag. Yes?

That's what I meant. If you're going to use the man as a WR, then he should get the WR tag - thus WR type money, or the same money CJ would get if he were in this position.

You said that teams can use their players any way they see fit. I agree, you just have to pay them accordingly.

Graham is not only their leading receiver, but one of the best receivers in the NFL. When you look at the people around him, they're not TE's - their WR's. Often he lines up - or is audibled out - to the slot position.

So, for purposes of the tag - he should be recognized as a WR.

The problem with the tag is...the salaries of tight ends haven't caught up to the evolution of the TE as an offensive weapon. When Graham is signed to a deal (probably a little more than Gronk), guess what the average of the top 5 TEs (and thus the tag number) does. It goes up.

 

[JDM]

He would have easily gotten more on the open market.

He didn't spin anything; I'm just stating the obvious. If he had elected to test the market, he would have made much more than he did.

 

[SonnyCID]

If they agree to get paid 'X' amount of dollars, that's their choice.

The problem with the tag is that the Saints are forcing him to accept a certain amount of money when he clearly plays more like another position.

See what I'm saying here?

If CJ were in this position and you tagged him, he'd get the WR tag. Yes?

That's what I meant. If you're going to use the man as a WR, then he should get the WR tag - thus WR type money, or the same money CJ would get if he were in this position.

You said that teams can use their players any way they see fit. I agree, you just have to pay them accordingly.

Graham is not only their leading receiver, but one of the best receivers in the NFL. When you look at the people around him, they're not TE's - their WR's. Often he lines up - or is audibled out - to the slot position.

So, for purposes of the tag - he should be recognized as a WR.

When defenses man up against CJ, they put their best cover corner on him, usually with a ton of safety help.

Graham goes up against LBs, safetys and #3 corners.

In order for Graham to get CJ money, I want to see him do what CJ does. That's demand the defenses best matchup all the time, not constantly move around to find favorable matchups for his offense.

 

[Money]

He would have easily gotten more on the open market.

He didn't spin anything; I'm just stating the obvious. If he had elected to test the market, he would have made much more than he did.

So he took millions less (on his 1st big money contract) for the honor and privilege of being a New England Patriot?

If so, he's a dumbass.

 

[Midnightangel]

So he took millions less (on his 1st big money contract) for the honor and privilege of being a New England Patriot?

If so, he's a dumbass.

I disagree here because Gronk has not yet won a ring and that's why you play the game.

I don't know about you, but I'd be willing to take less money to make the team better in order to get a shot at a ring. Now, once you get that ring - yeah, it's all about the money. That's the downside of what happened to Seattle this year. A lot of the players in that first contract are going to head for the money now that they have a SB win under their belts.

 

[SonnyCID]

I disagree here because Gronk has not yet won a ring and that's why you play the game.

I don't know about you, but I'd be willing to take less money to make the team better in order to get a shot at a ring. Now, once you get that ring - yeah, it's all about the money. That's the downside of what happened to Seattle this year. A lot of the players in that first contract are going to head for the money now that they have a SB win under their belts.

It's a combination, but money always takes precedence.

 

[Midnightangel]

It's a combination, but money always takes precedence.

Not always, and that's what I'm saying.

For SOME players it's all about the cash - but others want a ring first.

Dan Marino once said he'd trade every record he ever set for a ring.

 

[SonnyCID]

Not always, and that's what I'm saying.

For SOME players it's all about the cash - but others want a ring first.

Dan Marino once said he'd trade every record he ever set for a ring.

Would he trade every paycheck too?

 

[Midnightangel]

Would he trade every paycheck too?

I don't think it's fair to ask him to trade all his money, but I think he'd be willing to trade a good chunk of it for a ring.

If he could have taken 20-25% less over his career and gotten a ring, I think he'd be cool with that.