Cap to be raised

[JDM]

They're using him as a WR, and they're doing it far more than they're even pretending he's a tight end.

 

[cdumler7]

Huh??? Jimmy Graham is 13th in receptions and 15th in yards. Not exactly All-Pro material.

He is 1st in touchdowns which is a major stat people will factor in. Maybe he wouldn't be 1st team All-Pro for receivers but he at least makes the 2nd team list. Not bad for a TE.

 

[Money]

People can argue that TEs should be included with WRs in determining their tag value and I would tend to agree. The TE position has evolved and they continue to be used more and more as offensive weapons. They are still TEs though.

People cannot sit here and call Graham anything but a TE. Graham looks to me like a sure fire HOF candidate at TE as long as he doesn't fall off the face of this earth. He would have no shot as a WR.

 

[Money]

He is 1st in touchdowns which is a major stat people will factor in. Maybe he wouldn't be 1st team All-Pro for receivers but he at least makes the 2nd team list. Not bad for a TE.

The elite TEs tend to catch a lot of touchdowns. Antonio Gates had a year with 13 touchdowns. Gronkowski led the league 2 years ago. Davis and Thomas were right up there (along with Graham) this year. That doesn't make them WRs. Without doing a ton of work, I would argue that the top 10 TEs each year have a higher touchdown per catch ratio than the the top 10 WRs each year. You citing Grahams touchdowns is actually proof that he is, in fact, a TE as he has always been recognized.

 

[JDM]

People can argue that TEs should be included with WRs in determining their tag value and I would tend to agree. The TE position has evolved and they continue to be used more and more as offensive weapons. They are still TEs though.

People cannot sit here and call Graham anything but a TE. Graham looks to me like a sure fire HOF candidate at TE as long as he doesn't fall off the face of this earth. He would have no shot as a WR.

He's a WR. He lines up as a WR and runs WR routes. He doesn't block or do anything else that would classify him as a tight end. Where he stands should be based on what he does. He shouldn't get some special consideration as a "tight end" when he doesn't do anything that distinguishes one from a WR.

 

[cdumler7]

The elite TEs tend to catch a lot of touchdowns. Antonio Gates had a year with 13 touchdowns. Gronkowski led the league 2 years ago. Davis and Thomas were right up there (along with Graham) this year. That doesn't make them WRs. Without doing a ton of work, I would argue that the top 10 TEs each year have a higher touchdown per catch ratio than the the top 10 WRs each year. You citing Grahams touchdowns is actually proof that he is, in fact, a TE as he has always been recognized.

I understand your thought...I am not arguing that. I am saying that if he were distinguished as a receiver then his numbers still compare very well to the top guys in the league. He would still be a 1st or 2nd team All-Pro with his season this last year. There is a reason he and Johnson are considered two of the biggest weapons in the NFL no matter what position they play.

Now as for Graham being recognized as a receiver I have no clue. I hardly see him play on the line in a 3-point stance and seems to play more of the slot receiver type role in the offense. Teams do change how they cover him though as I have seen quite a few do the linebacker on the underneath with a safety over the top. Teams with a bigger corner tend to put a corner on him like what we saw with New England this past year putting Talib the whole game on Graham. Maybe they just need to make a whole new tag distinguishing between a TE and the new hybrid that is coming into the league like Graham. Maybe split the difference between TE and WR for the Tag.

 

[SonnyCID]

That's assuming he is covered by a linebacker in the first place. This isn't always the case, but if a team decided to put a linebacker on your receiver, that makes him a tight end now?

I think that when he protests he should and will win. The position he plays the most is WR, and his market value is clearly much closer to a WR's as well (although this second part isn't technically relevant, it's still likely to strengthen his case).

It is when they are in their base defense.

 

[JDM]

If by base defense you mean 4-3/3-4, that's getting phased out significantly. Sub packages are where it's at.

 

[cdumler7]

If by base defense you mean 4-3/3-4, that's getting phased out significantly. Sub packages are where it's at.

I do have to agree with this...Teams on average are spending less than half their time in what is called their base package. Plus teams are such hybrid systems these days where very few teams are actually 4-3 or 3-4 almost exclusively. This is why teams are looking so much more for players with versatility to play both systems.

I would also say they are looking for Corners/Safeties that can be versatile as well. Safeties pretty much now adays can't specialize in being a run stopper or pass defender but have to do both on the field.

 

[Money]

He's a WR. He lines up as a WR and runs WR routes. He doesn't block or do anything else that would classify him as a tight end. Where he stands should be based on what he does. He shouldn't get some special consideration as a "tight end" when he doesn't do anything that distinguishes one from a WR.

Therein lies the problem...because he does get that special consideration as a "tight end".

 

[Money]

49 of the 50 AP voters think he's a TE.

New Orleans Saints tight end Jimmy Graham named first-team All-Pro - ESPN

 

[Midnightangel]

49 of the 50 AP voters think he's a TE.

New Orleans Saints tight end Jimmy Graham named first-team All-Pro - ESPN

Money, I don't think you're quite grasping what we're saying....

He' listed as a TE.

He goes the probowl as a TE.

But the Saints use him more as a WR than a TE.

So, what's the difference?

About 5M in a franchise tag.

If the Saints use a franchise tag on him, they're likely to use the TE designation for the sole reason it's 5M cheaper than the WR tag.

Should they do that, Graham's counter point is going to be that they use him like a WR, thus he should be getting the WR tag.

And most of us not only see his point, we agree.

Should the Saints tag him as a TE, it's going to be one hell of a fight with the NFLPA.

 

[Money]

Money, I don't think you're quite grasping what we're saying....

He' listed as a TE.

He goes the probowl as a TE.

But the Saints use him more as a WR than a TE.

So, what's the difference?

About 5M in a franchise tag.

If the Saints use a franchise tag on him, they're likely to use the TE designation for the sole reason it's 5M cheaper than the WR tag.

Should they do that, Graham's counter point is going to be that they use him like a WR, thus he should be getting the WR tag.

And most of us not only see his point, we agree.

Should the Saints tag him as a TE, it's going to be one hell of a fight with the NFLPA.

You're missing my point. He can't pick and choose when he is recognized as a TE and when he is recognized as a WR. If TEs are eventually lumped in with WRs when it comes to determining the tag...great. Until then...you follow the established rules.

Bottom line...if he fancies himself a WR when it comes time to get paid, he should never, ever accept any award or recognition based off of him being a TE.

 

[JDM]

He doesn't control that

 

[Midnightangel]

You're missing my point. He can't pick and choose when he is recognized as a TE and when he is recognized as a WR. If TEs are eventually lumped in with WRs when it comes to determining the tag...great. Until then...you follow the established rules.

Bottom line...if he fancies himself a WR when it comes time to get paid, he should never, ever accept any award or recognition based off of him being a TE.

He has no control over how the team uses him, Money.

He lines up as a TE, then Brees audibles and moves him to the slot. What's he supposed to do? Refuse to move?

If they use him like a WR most the time, then when it comes tag time, he should get WR money.

 

[darken65]

You're missing my point. He can't pick and choose when he is recognized as a TE and when he is recognized as a WR. If TEs are eventually lumped in with WRs when it comes to determining the tag...great. Until then...you follow the established rules.

Bottom line...if he fancies himself a WR when it comes time to get paid, he should never, ever accept any award or recognition based off of him being a TE.

This is really simple. He is a TE. Sorry that a TE does shit differently than the postition is described . Do we pay QBs who run better than pass RB money? The position of TE has evolved for a long time now.

 

[Money]

He has no control over how the team uses him, Money.

He lines up as a TE, then Brees audibles and moves him to the slot. What's he supposed to do? Refuse to move?

If they use him like a WR most the time, then when it comes tag time, he should get WR money.

Only if and when they combine TEs with WRs. Until then...he's a TE (and will always be considered a TE) and should always be treated as such.

There's a reason why Calvin Johnson commands a 7 year / $113mil contract and Rob Gronkowski commands an 8 year / $55mil contract.

 

[Midnightangel]

Only if and when they combine TEs with WRs. Until then...he's a TE (and will always be considered a TE) and should always be treated as such.

There's a reason why Calvin Johnson commands a 7 year / $113mil contract and Rob Gronkowski commands an 8 year / $55mil contract.

And for that exact same reason, that's the kind of money that Graham commands. 16 TD's and over 1,200 yards.

He had more TD's than anyone else in the league, including the aforementioned Calvin Johnson. He was tied for 9th in plays over 20 yards and 10th in plays over 40 yards. Know who he was tied with on plays over 40 yards?

Calvin Johnson.

Check it.

NFL Stats: by Player Category

The guy puts up WR stats, not TE stats.

So if Calvin Johnson commands $113M/5 years and Jimmy Graham has numbers equal to or better than Calvin Johnson, then shouldn't Graham command the same kind of money?

 

[JDM]

Only if and when they combine TEs with WRs. Until then...he's a TE (and will always be considered a TE) and should always be treated as such.

There's a reason why Calvin Johnson commands a 7 year / $113mil contract and Rob Gronkowski commands an 8 year / $55mil contract.

Gronk actually plays tight end, though.

 

[Money]

And for that exact same reason, that's the kind of money that Graham commands. 16 TD's and over 1,200 yards.

He had more TD's than anyone else in the league, including the aforementioned Calvin Johnson. He was tied for 9th in plays over 20 yards and 10th in plays over 40 yards. Know who he was tied with on plays over 40 yards?

Calvin Johnson.

Check it.

NFL Stats: by Player Category

The guy puts up WR stats, not TE stats.

So if Calvin Johnson commands $113M/5 years and Jimmy Graham has numbers equal to or better than Calvin Johnson, then shouldn't Graham command the same kind of money?

Why do you bring up TDs like they are reserved for WRs? I think your idea of what a TE is hasn't evolved with the position.

Graham's stats weren't as good as Gronk's were in 2011. Why is Graham worth Calvin Johnson money, but Gronk is worth half that? Seems to me Graham is worth Gronk money.