I watched a Youtube video yesterday: How come the "longevity" argument ONLY works for LeBron?.

[MAGA2024]

Pete Rose is the all-time leader in Hits, AB's, Times On Base, #2 in Doubles, #4 in Runs Scored... he's also got MVP's, WS Championships, Gold Gloves, Batting titles, etc... yet no one considers him anywhere close to being the GOAT of baseball. Hank Aaron anyone? #1 all-time in RBI, Total Bases, x-base hits, #2 in HR, #3 in Hits, multiple Batting titles, HR titles, MVP's, Gold Gloves, a Championship, etc... yet no one considers him even the best player of his era, let alone the GOAT.

How about Hockey? Ovechkin has the most Goals in NHL history but no one believes he's the GOAT over Gretzky. Football? Emmitt Smith is the all-time leader in Rushing Yards, yet no once considers him the GOAT Running Back (over Payton, Brown or Sanders).

Hell, back to the NBA: By the end of the 90's (when Jabbar was the Career Points Scored leader AND the owner of more Championships and just as many total MVP's as LeBron) pretty much 999 out of 1,00 people considered Jordan the GOAT, not Kareem.

So why does the "longevity argument" ONLY matter when it comes to LeBron?

 

[tlance]

Pete Rose is the all-time leader in Hits, AB's, Times On Base, #2 in Doubles, #4 in Runs Scored... he's also got MVP's, WS Championships, Gold Gloves, Batting titles, etc... yet no one considers him anywhere close to being the GOAT of baseball. Hank Aaron anyone? #1 all-time in RBI, Total Bases, x-base hits, #2 in HR, #3 in Hits, multiple Batting titles, HR titles, MVP's, Gold Gloves, a Championship, etc... yet no one considers him even the best player of his era, let alone the GOAT.

How about Hockey? Ovechkin has the most Goals in NHL history but no one believes he's the GOAT over Gretzky. Football? Emmitt Smith is the all-time leader in Rushing Yards, yet no once considers him the GOAT Running Back (over Payton, Brown or Sanders).

Hell, back to the NBA: By the end of the 90's (when Jabbar was the Career Points Scored leader AND the owner of more Championships and just as many total MVP's as LeBron) pretty much 999 out of 1,00 people considered Jordan the GOAT, not Kareem.

So why does the "longevity argument" ONLY matter when it comes to LeBron?

Easy.

None of those players in other sports dominated their eras the way LeBron did.

LeBron was hands down the best player in the league for over a decade.

That is why he is in the GOAT discussion. He has more than just “longevity”. His peak is GOAT level also.

 

[MHSL82]

Easy.

None of those players in other sports dominated their eras the way LeBron did.

LeBron was hands down the best player in the league for over a decade.

That is why he is in the GOAT discussion. He has more than just “longevity”. His peak is GOAT level also.

I’m not a huge LeBron fan or hater, but what bugs me is when people point out that he has lost in the finals many times and how Tom Brady has lost in the Super Bowl multiple times as if that makes them worse.

If we’re going by championships, LeBron already has fewer championships than Jordan so that doesn’t matter I guess. But I think you’d have to look at the whole career to actually compare. If LeBron had the same number of championships as Jordan did, but also lost in four more or something, and people were using an argument against him, that’s stupid. Because for all the years that Jordan did not lose in the finals, he lost in the conference finals.

I do feel it applies as a critique more against LeBron than it would against Brady because in football, it’s one game. Losing a seven game series is more of a statement of a loss I guess. You have more chances of fixing anything that was wrong.

 

[MAGA2024]

Easy.

None of those players in other sports dominated their eras the way LeBron did.

LeBron was hands down the best player in the league for over a decade.

That is why he is in the GOAT discussion. He has more than just “longevity”. His peak is GOAT level also.

4-6 in the Finals is not domination. No MVP's after age 28 is not domination, no All Defense selections after age 29 is not domination. 38% shooting from beyond 3-feet from the basket is not domination. Only one (1) Scoring title and one (1) Assists title in 22 years is not domination.

Define "dominated".

 

[tlance]

I’m not a huge LeBron fan or hater, but what bugs me is when people point out that he has lost in the finals many times and how Tom Brady has lost in the Super Bowl multiple times as if that makes them worse.

If we’re going by championships, LeBron already has fewer championships than Jordan so that doesn’t matter I guess. But I think you’d have to look at the whole career to actually compare. If LeBron had the same number of championships as Jordan did, but also lost in four more or something, and people were using an argument against him, that’s stupid. Because for all the years that Jordan did not lose in the finals, he lost in the conference finals.

I do feel it applies as a critique more against LeBron than it would against Brady because in football, it’s one game. Losing a seven game series is more of a statement of a loss I guess. You have more chances of fixing anything that was wrong.

For sure.

Championships are obviously an important part of these debates, but they are just part.

Nobody, no matter how great can win a championship by themselves in a team sport.

 

[tlance]

4-6 in the Finals is not domination. No MVP's after age 28 is not domination, no All Defense selections after age 29 is not domination. 38% shooting from beyond 3-feet from the basket is not domination. Only one (1) Scoring title and one (1) Assists title in 22 years is not domination.

Define "dominated".

I did.

He was obviously the best player in the league from about 2007 until like 2018.

Best player doesn’t always win MVP. Otherwise Jordan would have more than he got also.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Pete Rose is the all-time leader in Hits, AB's, Times On Base, #2 in Doubles, #4 in Runs Scored... he's also got MVP's, WS Championships, Gold Gloves, Batting titles, etc... yet no one considers him anywhere close to being the GOAT of baseball. Hank Aaron anyone? #1 all-time in RBI, Total Bases, x-base hits, #2 in HR, #3 in Hits, multiple Batting titles, HR titles, MVP's, Gold Gloves, a Championship, etc... yet no one considers him even the best player of his era, let alone the GOAT.

How about Hockey? Ovechkin has the most Goals in NHL history but no one believes he's the GOAT over Gretzky. Football? Emmitt Smith is the all-time leader in Rushing Yards, yet no once considers him the GOAT Running Back (over Payton, Brown or Sanders).

Hell, back to the NBA: By the end of the 90's (when Jabbar was the Career Points Scored leader AND the owner of more Championships and just as many total MVP's as LeBron) pretty much 999 out of 1,00 people considered Jordan the GOAT, not Kareem.

So why does the "longevity argument" ONLY matter when it comes to LeBron?

Pete Rose was never in the GOAT conversation or anywhere close to it for baseball.

do you think Ovechkin was better than The Great One? Cmon man. That is just common sense.

KAJ is a too 3-4 player all-time hands down so it definitely played a part in his greatness and always has but even as great as Kareem was he didn’t dominate like Lebron did. What hurts KAJ to a standpoint is he played with another top 5ish player of all-time.

No one comes close in any sport, as far as longevity, except Brady. Brady and Lebron are one in million type of players and neither will be duplicated. Dominating at their sports for so long.

None of your examples are good examples. Lebron was cemented into the GOAT convo after the Miami run and the LA title only strengthened the argument.

 

[Shanemansj13]

4-6 in the Finals is not domination. No MVP's after age 28 is not domination, no All Defense selections after age 29 is not domination. 38% shooting from beyond 3-feet from the basket is not domination. Only one (1) Scoring title and one (1) Assists title in 22 years is not domination.

Define "dominated".

38% from 3 is way above average, weird example.
The fact people say “4-6” but yet to mention he carried his team to the finals in more than half of those instances. Go look at the Cavs 2007 roster and they played a team that had 4 HOFr’s lol. He did the same when they played the KD warriors after Kyrie left. Literally carried his team. MJ was lucky enough to lose before the Finals…get dominated by the C’s and bad boy Pistons. If not for those teams getting old…MJ would not be MJ.

Lebron averaged 25, 7 and 7 every year except for his rookie year. Think about that for one second.

It’s crazy people want to hate instead of appreciating. We won’t ever see a player like this in the league. Never! Period. He literally took his team to the Finals 9 out of 10 years. It is insane.

 

[MHSL82]

38% from 3 is way above average, weird example.

I think he meant 38% shooting from beyond 3 feet, not three point shooting. Not saying he is right about the rest, but I think that’s what he meant. And I don’t know if that’s accurate.

 

[MAGA2024]

I did.

He was obviously the best player in the league from about 2007 until like 2018.

Best player doesn’t always win MVP. Otherwise Jordan would have more than he got also.

Pretty sure Kobe (and maybe a couple/few other guys I'm forgetting) would have something to say about 07 and 08, while several other players could lay claim to "best in the league" status during the 2015-18 period. So realistically you could say LeBron was "obviously THE best" player from about 2009 - 2014, and at least a Top 3 player the rest of that period.

But regardless, Jabbar is right-there with LeBron when it comes to longevity and stats, plus Kareem's run as "obvious" best player in the game lasted longer than LeBron's, nevermind Kareem won more Championships and has just as many Awards/Accolades as James YET we never heard any serious argument for Kareem > Jordan once MJ retired after the second 3-Peat.

Just seems odd is all... I mean, how come "longevity" was never used to elevate Jabbar over MJ yet longevity is a MAJOR factor for why the Sports media (and Social media fanboys) argue LeBron over Jordan?

I dunno... it almost seems like media manufactured hype.

 

[Wamu]

4-6 in the Finals is not domination. No MVP's after age 28 is not domination, no All Defense selections after age 29 is not domination. 38% shooting from beyond 3-feet from the basket is not domination. Only one (1) Scoring title and one (1) Assists title in 22 years is not domination.

Define "dominated".

He gets extra credit for somehow getting the '07 and '18 Cavs all the way to Finals. Look at those awful rosters he had to carry.

Of his 10 Finals trips his teams have only been favored three times.

That means 70% of the time he was the underdog.

"Define "dominated"

Okay.

Only player to average at least 25 pgg for 20 consecutive seasons. And this season at age 40 he averaged 24.

NBA record 13x 1st team.

All NBA selection a record 21x.

All time leading scorer.

Only player to have 40,000+ points, 10,000+ rebounds, 10,000+ assists.

 

[MAGA2024]

Pete Rose was never in the GOAT conversation or anywhere close to it for baseball.

do you think Ovechkin was better than The Great One? Cmon man. That is just common sense.

KAJ is a too 3-4 player all-time hands down so it definitely played a part in his greatness and always has but even as great as Kareem was he didn’t dominate like Lebron did. What hurts KAJ to a standpoint is he played with another top 5ish player of all-time.

No one comes close in any sport, as far as longevity, except Brady. Brady and Lebron are one in million type of players and neither will be duplicated. Dominating at their sports for so long.

None of your examples are good examples. Lebron was cemented into the GOAT convo after the Miami run and the LA title only strengthened the argument.

I know Rose was never in the GOAT discussion; however isn't the ultimate goal of a "hitter" to get Hits / get On Base and score Runs? Well, Rose is #1 all-time in Hits, #1 all-time in Times On Base, #6 all-time in Runs Scored, and #11 all-time in Runs Created. So why isN't he in the discussion? Ditto with Hank Aaron? Not only do both guys have the Awards, Championships, Defense, and Hitting, but they also have longevity... yet neither guy is in the GOAT discussion.

...and how do you figure Jabbar didn't "dominate" like LeBron? In 20 season Jabbar won 6 Champions, 8 total MVP's, 11 All Defense selections, 15 All NBA selections, led league in Scoring 2-times, Blocks 4-times, PER 8-times, VORP 7-times (would be 11 if the stat was tallied his entire career) and Win Shares 9-times.

Jabbar was a beast... and when you add "longevity" to the discussion the question remains: Why didn't "longevity" put Jabbar over the top against Jordan yet longevity plays a major factor in the LeBron > Jordan argument?

Again, it seems either the "longevity" argument really isn't that significant "or" it's been made significant but only in an effort to elevate LeBron.

 

[Hbomb]

I know Rose was never in the GOAT discussion; however isn't the ultimate goal of a "hitter" to get Hits / get On Base and score Runs? Well, Rose is #1 all-time in Hits, #1 all-time in Times On Base, #6 all-time in Runs Scored, and #11 all-time in Runs Created. So why isN't he in the discussion? Ditto with Hank Aaron? Not only do both guys have the Awards, Championships, Defense, and Hitting, but they also have longevity... yet neither guy is in the GOAT discussion.

...and how do you figure Jabbar didn't "dominate" like LeBron? In 20 season Jabbar won 6 Champions, 8 total MVP's, 11 All Defense selections, 15 All NBA selections, led league in Scoring 2-times, Blocks 4-times, PER 8-times, VORP 7-times (would be 11 if the stat was tallied his entire career) and Win Shares 9-times.

Jabbar was a beast... and when you add "longevity" to the discussion the question remains: Why didn't "longevity" put Jabbar over the top against Jordan yet longevity plays a major factor in the LeBron > Jordan argument?

Again, it seems either the "longevity" argument really isn't that significant "or" it's been made significant but only in an effort to elevate LeBron.

Kareem was a great player. No doubt.
But the Laker teams were Magic’s. He was the alpha much like LeBron was on his 4 rings.

 

[MAGA2024]

38% from 3 is way above average, weird example.
The fact people say “4-6” but yet to mention he carried his team to the finals in more than half of those instances. Go look at the Cavs 2007 roster and they played a team that had 4 HOFr’s lol. He did the same when they played the KD warriors after Kyrie left. Literally carried his team. MJ was lucky enough to lose before the Finals…get dominated by the C’s and bad boy Pistons. If not for those teams getting old…MJ would not be MJ.

Lebron averaged 25, 7 and 7 every year except for his rookie year. Think about that for one second.

It’s crazy people want to hate instead of appreciating. We won’t ever see a player like this in the league. Never! Period. He literally took his team to the Finals 9 out of 10 years. It is insane.

LeBron shoots 38% from beyond 3-feet (from the basket) for his career; 36% during the playoffs. It a word: Dismal.

As for his 25/7/7 "stats", eh, okay... but all those stats yielded just 4 Championships in 22 years (including the asterisk-worthy Bubble Ring, played in an empty stadium), even though LeBron has played alongside over a DOZEN HOFERS and a boatload of All Star / All NBA level players throughout his career.

LeBron also benefitted tremendously from playing in the Eastern Conference when it was arguably at its all-time weakest. That explains why he had so many Finals "appearances"; however FWIW Vegas gave the 2007 Cavs the 6th best odds to win the Championship that year, so let's not pretend they were scrubs... and throughout his career Vegas picked LeBron James' teams to win the Championship seven (7) times, yet he won only 4 times. On the flipside Vegas had Jordan-led teams winning 5 times, and MJ actually won 6.

I don't appreciate "stats" if the player plays on Championship-level teams yet can't back it up in the Winning department... which is why Wilt isn't MUCH higher up on the GOAT list, and why no one talks about Russell Westbrook or James Harden. In the case of Jordan / LeBron, one guy over-achieved (MJ) and the other guy failed to live up to expectations several times (LeBron).

 

[MAGA2024]

He gets extra credit for somehow getting the '07 and '18 Cavs all the way to Finals. Look at those awful rosters he had to carry.

Of his 10 Finals trips his teams have only been favored three times.

That means 70% of the time he was the underdog.

"Define "dominated"

Okay.

Only player to average at least 25 pgg for 20 consecutive seasons. And this season at age 40 he averaged 24.

NBA record 13x 1st team.

All NBA selection a record 21x.

All time leading scorer.

Only player to have 40,000+ points, 10,000+ rebounds, 10,000+ assists.

That's not domination, that's longevity driven.

"Domination" is 1960-68 Wilt Chamberlain, 1987-98 Michael Jordan, 1980-91 Wayne Gretzky, 1991-00 Frank Thomas, 1970-81 Kareem, and yes, LeBron from about 2008-13.

From 2014 to the present LeBron has not dominated. He's been consistently great yes, but not dominating.

Also FYI: Vegas gave the 2007 Cavs the 6th best odds of winning the Championship that year, while the 2018 Cavs had Kevin Love (who was an All Star that season) and three (3) players off the Bench who finished 7th, 10th and 12th respectively, in 6th MOY voting, so these weren't scrub teams regardless of what the LeMedia would like us to believe.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Easy.

None of those players in other sports dominated their eras the way LeBron did.

LeBron was hands down the best player in the league for over a decade.

That is why he is in the GOAT discussion. He has more than just “longevity”. His peak is GOAT level also.

Yep.

 

[tlance]

Pretty sure Kobe (and maybe a couple/few other guys I'm forgetting) would have something to say about 07 and 08, while several other players could lay claim to "best in the league" status during the 2015-18 period. So realistically you could say LeBron was "obviously THE best" player from about 2009 - 2014, and at least a Top 3 player the rest of that period.

But regardless, Jabbar is right-there with LeBron when it comes to longevity and stats, plus Kareem's run as "obvious" best player in the game lasted longer than LeBron's, nevermind Kareem won more Championships and has just as many Awards/Accolades as James YET we never heard any serious argument for Kareem > Jordan once MJ retired after the second 3-Peat.

Just seems odd is all... I mean, how come "longevity" was never used to elevate Jabbar over MJ yet longevity is a MAJOR factor for why the Sports media (and Social media fanboys) argue LeBron over Jordan?

I dunno... it almost seems like media manufactured hype.

Nah.

It was a lot longer than 5 years.

A couple people had individual seasons that were better than LeBron’s seasons during that stretch.

Steph Curry in 2016 for example.

But there was absolutely no doubt who the best player in the NBA was that year.

2007 and maybe even before was no different.

 

[navamind]

Pete Rose is the all-time leader in Hits, AB's, Times On Base, #2 in Doubles, #4 in Runs Scored... he's also got MVP's, WS Championships, Gold Gloves, Batting titles, etc... yet no one considers him anywhere close to being the GOAT of baseball.

because he's not. A guy with a .375 OBP (which ranks 228th all-time), .409 SLG% (not even in the top 1000) and 118 OPS+ (tied for 465th all-time) isn't one of the greatest hitters of all-time. His counting stats were a function of him playing longer and being able to insert himself into the lineup whenever he pleased. Rose had three seasons where he finished in the top 10 in OPS+, and never finished higher than 7th. To put in perspective, Rose's best OPS+ was 158... Aaron's career OPS+ was 155 and that 158 would have been the 11th best of Aaron's career.

 

[rmilia1]

I’m not a huge LeBron fan or hater, but what bugs me is when people point out that he has lost in the finals many times and how Tom Brady has lost in the Super Bowl multiple times as if that makes them worse.

If we’re going by championships, LeBron already has fewer championships than Jordan so that doesn’t matter I guess. But I think you’d have to look at the whole career to actually compare. If LeBron had the same number of championships as Jordan did, but also lost in four more or something, and people were using an argument against him, that’s stupid. Because for all the years that Jordan did not lose in the finals, he lost in the conference finals.

I do feel it applies as a critique more against LeBron than it would against Brady because in football, it’s one game. Losing a seven game series is more of a statement of a loss I guess. You have more chances of fixing anything that was wrong.

Finals wins are really all that matters

Losses in the Finals only matter when it's a tiebreaker between people with the same amount of rings

But not in the way just people think

Like going 6-0 on the Finals isn't better than going 6-4

This isn't a baseball season. You don't get bonus points for win % 6 is 6. Not being good enough to make the a Finals 4 other times isnt a bonus for you.

If LeBron wins 2 more rings ( he won't but let's pretend ) his 6-6 record will be better than MJs 6-0 in the same way it's better to have 6 gold medals and 6 silver medals than it is just to have 6 gold medals

 

[msgkings322]

Finals wins are really all that matters

Losses in the Finals only matter when it's a tiebreaker between people with the same amount of rings

But not in the way just people think

Like going 6-0 on the Finals isn't better than going 6-4

This isn't a baseball season. You don't get bonus points for win % 6 is 6. Not being good enough to make the a Finals 4 other times isnt a bonus for you.

If LeBron wins 2 more rings ( he won't but let's pretend ) his 6-6 record will be better than MJs 6-0 in the same way it's better to have 6 gold medals and 6 silver medals than it is just to have 6 gold medals

The question is what’s better 6 golds and no silvers or 4 golds and 6 silvers? Also it’s a team sport so rings are not perfect metrics of individual greatness. Far from it as Karl Malone and so on show us