POLL Top 10 poll #23: #23 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #23 player in baseball history. Poll closes Sunday AM.

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
@Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte
@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
@Robotech @kcden @jwolt92
@Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab
@DorianRo @socaljim242
@msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin
@catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1
@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007
@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[calsnowskier]

Lefty Grove 1925 - 1941

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes (no Cy Young Awards were given during his career)

Bold: ERA 9, K 6, WHIP 5, IP 0, K/BB 8

300-141 W-L
2266/1187 K/BB
457/298 GS/CG
3940.2 IP

Cy Young 1890 - 1911

CY every day of his life (no accolades given during his career)

Bold: ERA 2, K 2, WHIP 7, IP 2, K/BB 11; All Time; Wins 511, GS 815, CG 749, IP 7356.0

511-315 W-L
2803/1217 K/BB
815/749 GS/CG
7356.0 IP

Sandy Koufax (1955 - 1966)

3 CY, 1 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 3 additional seasons with MVP votes, 6 (+1) ASG

Bold: ERA 5, K 4, IP 2, WHIP 4, K/BB 3

165-87 W-L
2396/817 K/BB
314/137 GS/CG
2324.1 IP

 

[calsnowskier]

Ken Griffey Jr (CF) 1989 - 2010

1 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 3 additional seasons with MVP votes, 13 ASG, 10 GG, 7 SS

83.8, 54.0

Bold: WAR 3, RBI 1, HR 4, R 1, TB 2

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 3
140 - 5
120 - 4

Frank Robinson (RF) 1956 - 1976

2 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 12 (+2) ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

107.2, 52.9

Bold: WAR 1, R 3, HR 1, RBI 1, OPS 4, TB 1, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 8
120 - 3

 

[calsnowskier]

Imho…

Lefty
Cy
Robinson
…
Griffey
…
Koufax

Griffey is still about 10 spots off (maybe a bit less) and Koufax is a LONG way off. Only 2k IP in 11 seasons just isn’t enough, no matter how dominant his 5-year peak was.

 

[Clayton]

Between Lefty and Robinson, Lefty has the better prime and Robinson a well above average player for a longer period of time. I generally lean towards prime when the WARs are similar. Lefty won an MVP as a pitcher and was really good in the postseason. Seems like the pick here

 

[calsnowskier]

Between Lefty and Robinson, Lefty has the better prime and Robinson a well above average player for a longer period of time. I generally lean towards prime when the WARs are similar. Lefty won an MVP as a pitcher and was really good in the postseason. Seems like the pick here

I like Lefty/Cy here with Robinson just a shave below them. But Lefty/Cy/Robinson is probably my true top 3 right now. Bench/Berra and Trout aren’t far off, though, and may actually bump Robinson.

 

[LHG]

I understand it was a long time ago but its getting almost criminal that Young hasn't been selected yet. He was very dominant for his era and for a long time (look at the other pitchers from his time, no else did what he did. Closest is Kid Nichols).
That said, I can see the argument for Lefty Grove being better (in the same vein as Pedro Martinez deserving to be ranked where he is). I'm okay with either pitcher getting the nod here but Young soon is off the board after this if he doesn't get in here.

 

[calsnowskier]

I understand it was a long time ago but its getting almost criminal that Young hasn't been selected yet. He was very dominant for his era and for a long time (look at the other pitchers from his time, no else did what he did. Closest is Kid Nichols).
That said, I can see the argument for Lefty Grove being better (in the same vein as Pedro Martinez deserving to be ranked where he is). I'm okay with either pitcher getting the nod here but Young soon is off the board after this if he doesn't get in here.

If you acknowledge that Lefty is a deserving pick for this spot, who do you take off the board in favor of Young?

I agree that it is surprising that Young has fallen this low, but I can’t argue any name picked ahead of him so far.

 

[LHG]

If you acknowledge that Lefty is a deserving pick for this spot, who do you take off the board in favor of Young?

I agree that it is surprising that Young has fallen this low, but I can’t argue any name picked ahead of him so far.

I've softened quite a bit on how high Young should be ranked (remember who I voted for initially for #1?) and, as mentioned, I could see Grove getting the nod here. I'd probably move a couple of hitters a spot or two lower to fit one or both pitchers higher. I do think Henderson was ranked way too high. I'd push DiMaggio and Pujols down a bit too. Essentially, I think Henderson is closer to #30 and everyone else could be moved down a spot to get these two pitchers in higher.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I've softened quite a bit on how high Young should be ranked (remember who I voted for initially for #1?) and, as mentioned, I could see Grove getting the nod here. I'd probably move a couple of hitters a spot or two lower to fit one or both pitchers higher. I do think Henderson was ranked way too high. I'd push DiMaggio and Pujols down a bit too. Essentially, I think Henderson is closer to #30 and everyone else could be moved down a spot to get these two pitchers in higher.

I am a clear lefty over young guy.

I think it is clear that lefty had more best seasons. But young had a longer “one of the best” career.

But then I look at the fact that young never faced the hr hitter. At least not as an elite pitcher he didn’t. And his first decade of playing was the pre1900s which has the stigma of having in accurate stats and inferior rules.

So when there is a close competition I will Almost always take the more modern player. Not saying 1920s was modern baseball.

The only exception to the tie goes modern is during the steroid era.

 

[LHG]

I would like to hear a good argument for why Sandy Koufax is better than either Young or Grove. Would one of his 5 voters please share the reason for voting for him?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would like to hear a good argument for why Sandy Koufax is better than either Young or Grove. Would one of his 5 voters please share the reason for voting for him?

I think for him it is simple. He had an insane 5 consecutive season run. Unlike anyone else in baseball history. With a built in dominance in the ws. Twice.

That run has created a legend, rightfully so, that he was untouchable.

 

[LHG]

I think for him it is simple. He had an insane 5 consecutive season run. Unlike anyone else in baseball history. With a built in dominance in the ws. Twice.

That run has created a legend, rightfully so, that he was untouchable.

I was hoping that someone who voted for him would make the case. My counter is a lot of players were really good for 5 years but sputtered out earlier than most HOFers. Obviously, Koufax was more dominant than most but how does those 5 years make him one of the best pitchers of all time when other guys (like Grove and Young) were able to dominate for longer (even if at slightly lower levels)?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I was hoping that someone who voted for him would make the case. My counter is a lot of players were really good for 5 years but sputtered out earlier than most HOFers. Obviously, Koufax was more dominant than most but how does those 5 years make him one of the best pitchers of all time when other guys (like Grove and Young) were able to dominate for longer (even if at slightly lower levels)?

It’s the consecutive part that gives him the legend.

And winning 3 ws and 2 during those 5 seasons. While he pitched dominant in the ws.

Nobody had a better 5 consecutive season run than him. Sure, the first season of those 5, his war was only 4.4. But that’s because of the innings. His WHIP and era in that 5 years is insane.

Yes, I have him after lefty and young. But he is definitely in question for the next tier with Mathewson, Seaver and others.