The Long Sordid History of National Championships

[goDAWGSsicem]

If anyone needs to head back to the minors it's you. The NCAA record site lists 16 championships for Oklahoma. OU only claims the 7 they were actually awarded by the AP/UPI/Coaches Polls. If you read the Wiki site article they also only mention the 7 OU actually claims yet the "official" count by the NCAA is 16.

^

I don't even get what you're point is...

 

[ugafan6612]

 

[Iron My Jorts]

That one is disputed with Ohio State.

No it's not.

FBS Football Championship History - NCAA.com

 

[goDAWGSsicem]

I think it is common knowledge that the NCAA has not/does not officially recognize a FBS champion.

 

[bchampy]

I think it is common knowledge that the NCAA has not/does not officially recognize a FBS champion.

The NCAA does not determine or declare a national champion, but they do list what other governing bodies have "selected" as National Champions.

Which is pretty much what you said, except they do recognize that other organizations have chosen champions.

 

[goDAWGSsicem]

The NCAA does not determine or declare a national champion, but they do list what other governing bodies have "selected" as National Champions.

Which is pretty much what you said, except they do recognize that other organizations have chosen champions.

Right, and unless a NC selector is universally accepted (and there isn't one) the NC from year to year is up for debate in many years.

Just because the NCAA website seems to be biased towards the AP doesn't mean that they are consensus champion selector.

 

[potzer25]

Right, and unless a NC selector is universally accepted (and there isn't one) the NC from year to year is up for debate in many years.

Just because the NCAA website seems to be biased towards the AP doesn't mean that they are consensus champion selector.

It's a pretty good filter, though. If it isn't listed there then the argument for the NC is significantly weaker...

 

[goDAWGSsicem]

It's a pretty good filter, though. If it isn't listed there then the argument for the NC is significantly weaker...

I don't think their opinion holds any more weight than anypne elses.

 

[bchampy]

Right, and unless a NC selector is universally accepted (and there isn't one) the NC from year to year is up for debate in many years.

Just because the NCAA website seems to be biased towards the AP doesn't mean that they are consensus champion selector.

Did you even read my post? The NCAA website isn't biased towards anyone. I simply stated that the NCAA "recognizes" that other governing bodies select national champions at the FBS level; be it AP, BCS, or any of the other ones. Even when there are "split" titles, the NCAA has all the teams listed along with what organization awarded them the NC for that year.

 

[goDAWGSsicem]

Did you even read my post? The NCAA website isn't biased towards anyone. I simply stated that the NCAA "recognizes" that other governing bodies select national champions at the FBS level; be it AP, BCS, or any of the other ones. Even when there are "split" titles, the NCAA has all the teams listed along with what organization awarded them the NC for that year.

The list seems to be biased towards the AP from 1936 on.

Look at 1942, the site only list Ohio State as the champion (who the AP picked). However, Georgia and Wisconsin were also awarded NC that year.


Ohio State was awarded a NC by 17 organizations/polls; Georgia was awarded a NC by 18 organizations/polls; and Wisconsin was awarded a NC by only one organization.


Ohio State was 9-1 that year
Ohio State Game by Game Results

Wisconsin was 8-1-1 that year
Wisconsin Game by Game Results

Georgia was 11-1 that year & Rose Bowl Champions
Georgia Game by Game Results



For their site not to recognize UGA as the Champion, or at least a shared Champion shows bias to me.

 

[bchampy]

I figured I missed something. Godawgs is bitching about the NCAA only showing Ohio St in 1942. It mostly seems that UGA was awarded the NC by a single person, awarded it retroactively, or both. I'm not disputing a NC from WW2, just showing that the AP has more credibility than a guy making up polls. Hell, the SportsHoopla poll has as much credibility as some of the people awarding championships.

1942
Georgia:
Berryman-QPRS Ratings
(1940-p.)
Clyde P. Berryman developed a mathematical formula in 1990. Called the Quality Point Rating System, factors include strength of schedule, win-loss record and points for and points against.
Berryman predated national champions from 1940-89.

The DeVold System
(1939-p.)
Harry DeVold developed this mathematical rating system. A former Cornell player, his ratings have appeared in The Football News since 1962.
DeVold predated national champions from 1939-44.

The Houlgate System
(1927-58)
Deke Houlgate created a mathematical system for rating teams and they were sydicated for publication in newspapers. His ratings were also published in Illustrated Football and the Football Thesaurus.

The Litkenhous System
(1934-84)
Edward E. Litkenhous with his brother Frank Litkenhouse developed a formula based on margin of victory. Litkenhous was a chemical engineering professor at Vanderbilt.

Poling System
(1924-84)
Richard Poling was one of the pioneers in mathematical rating systems. A former Ohio Wesleyan player, Poling's ratings were published in the Football Review Supplement and invarious newspapers.
Poling predated national champions from 1924-34

The Williamson System
(1932-63)
Paul Williamson created his power rating system in 1932 and determined champions for the next three decades. Williamson was a member of the Sugar Bowl Committee.

Ohio State:
The Associated Press
(1936-p.)

The Associated Press is the oldest and most well-known of the wire service polls in college football.

Sports writers and broadcasters across the country make up the pool of voters.

AP champions received trophies under various names over the years: Williams Trophy, O'Donnell Trophy, AP Trophy and today, the Bear Bryant Trophy.

 

[goDAWGSsicem]

The AP poll was only 6 years old at the time, and not widely accepted... or repected the way it is today.

Georgia
1st-N-Goal
Bill Libby
Billingsley Report
Century Football Index
Cliff Morgan
Clyde Berryman
Edward Litkenhous
Harry DeVold
Houlgate System
James Howell
Loren Maxwell
Mel Smith
Montgomery Full Season Championship
Nutshell Sports Football Ratings
Poling System
Sagarin Ratings
The State's National Champions
Williamson System


Ohio State
Angelo Louisa
Associated Press
Bernie McCarty
Boand System
Bob Kirlin
Bob Royce
College Football Researchers Association
College Football USA
David Wilson
Dunkel System
Earl Jessen
George Trevor
Harry Frye
James Whalen
Jim Koger
National Championship Foundation
Patrick Premo





The polls are all debatable... but what about the records, and UGA's Rose Bowl win over UCLA?

Frankly, I would give it to Texas that year over OSU.

OSU was awarded the NC over popularity. Nothing more.

 

[potzer25]

So just claim it...much stronger case than 'bama the year before...
Recognized National Championships by Year

1941
Alabama: Houlgate
Minnesota: AP, Billingsley, Boand, DeVold, Dunkel, Football Research, Helms, Litkenhous, National Championship Foundation, Poling, Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess)
Texas: Berryman, Williamson

1942
Georgia: Berryman, Billingsley, DeVold, Houlgate, Litkenhous, Poling, Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess), Williamson
Ohio St.: AP, Boand, Dunkel, Football Research, National Championship Foundation
Wisconsin: Helms

Full list included here: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2011/FBS.pdf

 

[HighTide]

Leave it to an Auburn fan to have little brother syndrome.

 

[bchampy]

The polls are all debatable... but what about the records, and UGA's Rose Bowl win over UCLA?

Frankly, I would give it to Texas that year over OSU.

OSU was awarded the NC over popularity. Nothing more.[/B]

All NC's have been awarded due to popularity.


Hell, even look at how the BCS have evolved over the years.

From 98-05, number of appearances by Conference:

Big12-5(won 1)
ACC-3(won 1)
BE-3(won 1)
Pac10-2(won 1)
SEC-2(won both. many feel Auburn got snubbed in 04)
Big10-1(won 1)

From 06-11, number of appearances by Conference:

SEC-7(won 5, will add a 6th win but also a loss)
Big10-2(lost both)
Big12-2(lost both)
Pac10-1(lost both)

Since 2006, the SEC has been in every BCS title game, including SEC vs SEC in this years. Meyer had to campaign to get UF into the game, and had USC not lost, UF would have been left out.

Things happened the way they did, and the media focused more on the SEC after that.

 

[potzer25]

What are you talking about? Atleast use the fallback insult when appropriate...

 

[HighTide]

What are you talking about? Atleast use the fallback insult when appropriate...

All of your posts in this thread deal with comparing something to what Alabama did as an insult to the program, ergo little brother syndrome.

Would it have been easier just to say, U Mad bro?

 

[bchampy]

Leave it to an Auburn fan to have little brother syndrome.
All of your posts in this thread deal with comparing something to what Alabama did as an insult to the program, ergo little brother syndrome.

Would it have been easier just to say, U Mad bro?

You're a sensitive fella aren't ya, HighTide.

 

[Iron My Jorts]

The list seems to be biased towards the AP from 1936 on.
Look at 1942, the site only list Ohio State as the champion (who the AP picked). However, Georgia and Wisconsin were also awarded NC that year.
Ohio State was awarded a NC by 17 organizations/polls; Georgia was awarded a NC by 18 organizations/polls; and Wisconsin was awarded a NC by only one organization.
Ohio State was 9-1 that year
Ohio State Game by Game Results
Wisconsin was 8-1-1 that year
Wisconsin Game by Game Results
Georgia was 11-1 that year & Rose Bowl Champions
Georgia Game by Game Results

For their site not to recognize UGA as the Champion, or at least a shared Champion shows bias to me.

lmao

 

[BigAppleBadger]

The NCAA doesn't officially recognize a FBS NC.

And they allowed them to only go to the Rose Bowl, but the Rose Bowl picked UGA... the National Champions.

No... Big Ten teams couldn't go to any bowl, not even the Rose Bowl, from 1922 - 1946. The Rose Bowl then was just the Pacific Coast Conference champion vs. a team from the Eastern U.S.

For the 1947 game, the PCC and B10 signed an agreement to have their champions play in the Rose Bowl Game. The Big Ten then won the next 6 Rose Bowl games. Until 1975, Big Ten teams were not allowed to play in bowls other than the Rose Bowl. Only for the last 35 years has the Big Ten sent multiple teams to bowl games.

The Big Ten actually only played in two Rose Bowl games prior to 1947, the first being the original game (not yet called the Rose Bowl) to end the 1901 season. Michigan defeated Stanford 49-0 after the Stanford team quit during the 3rd quarter. The game was so lopsided that they didn't play another football game as part of the Tournament of Roses for 15 years. Ohio State and Penn State played in the 1921 and 1923 games, but Penn State was not yet a member of the Big Ten conference.