LeBron James

[lebron23james]

Draymond Green IS better than Love, fake tough guy or not

Green is a product of being on GS

He avgs 9 points a game on 43% shooting and 30% from 3...Take green off GS and he is not very good

Love averaged 20 ppg his entire career on better shooting

 

[msgkings322]

defender? Agree.

Overall player you want on your team

 

[lebron23james]

Overall player you want on your team

Every advanced metric says Kevin Love is the better player...

Kevin Love gets a bad rap because he is white imo...

 

[dtgold88]

Overall player you want on your team

On HIS team? I agree. Not many others.

 

[dtgold88]

Every advanced metric says Kevin Love is the better player...

Kevin Love gets a bad rap because he is white imo...

I didn't want to say it. That, he's quiet, and no credit for being a good teammate, willing to change his role as needed, etc.

 

[lebron23james]

I didn't want to say it.

I did

 

[msgkings322]

Love and Green are close enough that team fit matters
But while Green is not obviously a lot better than Love, that's also true of the reverse

 

[CitySushi]

Green is a product of being on GS

He avgs 9 points a game on 43% shooting and 30% from 3...Take green off GS and he is not very good

Love averaged 20 ppg his entire career on better shooting

Again depends on what you value. Love averaged 20 points per game, but also his Minnesota teams never did anything.

If you're looking at Love vs Draymond in a #1 role, sure I'd take Love over Draymond. But also in that scenario neither player is winning at any real level being the #1 option.

If you're looking at Love vs Draymond in a #2 role, that becomes dicier depending on who the #1 player is. But an argument could be made either way.

Love vs. Draymond in a #3 role or less, Draymond is way more valuable because of his complimentary role and his short comings are more over-shadowed.

I think the problem I have with most people's assessments of player's abilities is the 1 vs 1 comparison. Context matters. Fit matters. Roles matters. After you get past the initial superstars of the NBA, the player valuation system for me comes down to who can be better in their role and who can be a winning player in their role. It's essentially the Klay vs. Butler argument every time.

 

[lebron23james]

Trading for Love was a great trade for Cleveland and a necessary one. I said it at the time and I say it still now.

Love was a star for sure. And a great fit with LBJ. Those are facts.

But he wasn't a superstar and his trade value was equal to 1 elite prospect (Wiggins). Not 2.

People consider Bosh a superstar HOF and Love has better finals stats vs tougher competition

He also has a higher career PER and career win share

...Makes one wonder huh?

 

[dtgold88]

I did

It's that and he's also boring for fans.

You're vastly understating and oversimplifying the value of Draymond Green. In contrast you're probably also over-valuing Nance.

It's easier to put up big numbers on bad teams so comparing the actual production numbers of players is kind of cherry picking. This is coming from a guy who overvalued players like Monta Ellis and Antawn Jamison because of their production on bad Warriors teams.

First of all Draymond and Nance are worlds apart defensively. Secondly they're worlds apart on their play making ability. If you're comparing scoring, that's completely fair as Draymond has never and will never be a true scorer on any team he's on.

The fact is that Nance cannot have the SAME impact Draymond does for this Warriors team because their games are a contrast. Draymond Green has always been a play making forward which is essential to this Warriors team given their personnel. He has the most triple doubles for MSU in the NCAA tournament in the history of their school.

I cannot actually believe you think their values are anywhere near the same. I get the Love vs. Draymond argument. That's valid, depending on what you value from the player and what your expectations are for their team. But Nance vs. Draymond??? There's really no debate. I'm going with a hard stance that given everyone on this board, no one would agree with your assessment.

I said in my first comment on this I didn't think he's as good but would like to see what he could do in Green's role on GS. Like others, you think I'm cherry picking but want to make excuses for Green, but also don't take into account how much easier it must be to play on GS in that role where the defense doesn't care about Green.

And, as mentioned, I thought the same as you until Nance started to take more of a playmaking and facilitating role with so many players missing this year. Was a far better ball handler and passer than I imagined he'd be.....and that's playing with below average teammates.

 

[CitySushi]

People consider Bosh a superstar HOF and Love has better finals stats vs tougher competition

He also has a higher career PER and career win share

...Makes one wonder huh?

Bosh was also a MUCH better defender than Love is or ever has been.

 

[lebron23james]

Again depends on what you value. Love averaged 20 points per game, but also his Minnesota teams never did anything.

If you're looking at Love vs Draymond in a #1 role, sure I'd take Love over Draymond. But also in that scenario neither player is winning at any real level being the #1 option.

If you're looking at Love vs Draymond in a #2 role, that becomes dicier depending on who the #1 player is. But an argument could be made either way.

Love vs. Draymond in a #3 role or less, Draymond is way more valuable because of his complimentary role and his short comings are more over-shadowed.

I think the problem I have with most people's assessments of player's abilities is the 1 vs 1 comparison. Context matters. Fit matters. Roles matters. After you get past the initial superstars of the NBA, the player valuation system for me comes down to who can be better in their role and who can be a winning player in their role. It's essentially the Klay vs. Butler argument every time.

The fit argument is different. I thought we were just talking about who is better?

Sometimes the worse player fitting better makes a lot of sense.

 

[dtgold88]

Again depends on what you value. Love averaged 20 points per game, but also his Minnesota teams never did anything.

If you're looking at Love vs Draymond in a #1 role, sure I'd take Love over Draymond. But also in that scenario neither player is winning at any real level being the #1 option.

If you're looking at Love vs Draymond in a #2 role, that becomes dicier depending on who the #1 player is. But an argument could be made either way.

Love vs. Draymond in a #3 role or less, Draymond is way more valuable because of his complimentary role and his short comings are more over-shadowed.

I think the problem I have with most people's assessments of player's abilities is the 1 vs 1 comparison. Context matters. Fit matters. Roles matters. After you get past the initial superstars of the NBA, the player valuation system for me comes down to who can be better in their role and who can be a winning player in their role. It's essentially the Klay vs. Butler argument every time.

I think these are all fair comments. Have said if the players were traded it would have hurt both teams.

 

[lebron23james]

Bosh was also a MUCH better defender than Love is or ever has been.

True, but total win share includes offense and defense and Love's is higher

 

[CitySushi]

The fit argument is different. I thought we were just talking about who is better?

Sometimes the worse player fitting better makes a lot of sense.

Who is better is relative to their importance on winning, IMO. Again 1 on 1 comparisons don't make any sense to me.

 

[msgkings322]

The fit argument is different. I thought we were just talking about who is better?

Sometimes the worse player fitting better makes a lot of sense.

Kind of affects the definition of 'better' and 'worse'. It is a fun debate for sure.

 

[dtgold88]

Bosh was also a MUCH better defender than Love is or ever has been.

Ya gotta love when in doubt go to defense. Love is not the terrible defender he is made out to be. Is he good or even above average? Nope. FTR, defensive rebounding is part of defense and Love is exceptional in that regard.

 

[dtgold88]

Green is a product of being on GS

He avgs 9 points a game on 43% shooting and 30% from 3...Take green off GS and he is not very good

Love averaged 20 ppg his entire career on better shooting

Yep....and defenses want Green to shoot. They try and stop Love.

 

[lebron23james]

Who is better is relative to their importance on winning, IMO. Again 1 on 1 comparisons don't make any sense to me.

Well one is hypothetical right? We don't know without the player playing on both teams right?

 

[CitySushi]

True, but total win share includes offense and defense and Love's is higher

Again, context matters. 3 of Kevin Love's highest Win Share seasons came during his tenure with the T-Wolves. Looking at his "contender" window, Bosh's win shares are much better than Love's. Kevin Love's biggest attributes to his success and career numbers come from hollow seasons.