What Was So "Great" About Dick Vermeil? (Apologies in advance.)

[Caynine29]

Yes... I'm well aware that the title itself is sacrilege in St. Louis. But, I assure you, this is not a thread designed to bash the man responsible for that Lombardi Trophy in the lobby at Rams Park. Best believe that as a nearly 30 year Ram fan, I LOVE Vermeil! However, during a recent debate on our current leadership, I was informed that comparing Vermeil to Jeff Fisher was "a mockery". Well, in St. Louis (for good reason), that may very well be true. But, in the broad landscape NFL history... it's only so in a mid-western nostalgic sense. Was Vermeil really that much better of an NFL head coach than Fisher is? Well... signs point to "no".

First of all, let's look at their respective career numbers.

Dick Vermeil
-W-L: 120-109 (.524)
-Division Championships: 4 (2 PHI, 1 STL, 1 KC) Avg. Divisional rank:2.8
-Conference Championships: 2 (1 PHI, 1 STL)
-Super Bowl Record: 1-1

Jeff Fisher
-W-L: 154-135-1 (.533)
-Division Championships: 4 (HOU/TEN) Avg Divisional rank: 2.6
-Conference Championships: 1 (HOU/TEN)
-Super Bowl Record: 0-1

Not a whole lot of separation there. Excluding the Super Bowl win, neither was much more remarkable than the other. It should be noted that Vermeil is now retired, after a 5 year, 44-36 stint with the Chiefs and therefore, cannot win any more championships. Fisher is still active and attempting to make the Rams his legacy. The crux of my argument, though, wasn't that one was any better than the other, but rather that the Rams' coaching situation was nearly identical following '98 as it is now. What sprung the aforementioned debate, was the notion that due to his history, Fisher was no good for the Rams and should be shown the door, less than two years into the massive reclamation project known as the 2012 St. Louis Rams. The similarities between Fisher and Vermeil's path to St. Louis are actually pretty astounding. How soon we forget that Rams fans were calling for Vermeil's head prior to the '99 season, just as some are before Fisher's second season hasn't even drawn to a close.

Now, let's look at the first two years of both coaches' stints in St. Louis (even though Fisher's will obviously be incomplete) and you'll see why, even beyond the fact that changing out coaches in such a brief period of time is a terrible idea, but that in St. Louis, that should be more evident than just about anywhere else.

Dick Vermeil (1997-1998 Rams)
Rams 1996 Record: 6-10
W-L: 9-23 (.281)

Jeff Fisher (2012-2013 Rams)
Rams 2011 Record: 2-14
W-L:12-15-1 (.444)

Vermeil actually took the team backwards in his first two years (5-11 in '97 and 4-12 in '98) and we're dogging Fisher for a 5 win improvement in year one?? Even if Fisher losses out the rest of this season, he'll still have a higher win percentage (.390) than Vermeil did in his first two years. Prior to their 3rd year in St. Louis, however, both had 4 division titles, both had 1 Conference championship andboth had been to a Super Bowl and lost.

Now, of course... unless you believe in the absolute of "history repeating", this isn't to say that Fisher will automatically win a Super Bowl next year. But, it does make one wonder why the comparison between Vermeil and Fisher would be so ludicrous, after all? And if we're ready to place Vermeil in the pantheon of St. Louis sports legends, then why wouldn't we cut Fisher just a little bit of slack during a complete overhaul, when every sign points to the fact that he's actually improving the team?

 

[Retroram52]

I have seen these data before and you have a compelling argument, but the one intangible about Fisher that Vermeil always had was that Vermeil was a disciplinarian (just ask Demarco Farr) who always, or nearly so, had his team prepared. This was after he rid the team of no talent and brought many new faces over a two year period.

Fisher appears to be less disciplined but as you have stated, he is totally revamping a team that was in the shitter for over a decade. It may take awhile for the new talent to gel as you have stated. The jury is still out although many of us are getting restless.

Another thing that gripes me that may not be entirely be Fisher is the tendency of the Rams to whiff on great players with this consistent gyrations in the draft to go after somebody that they have fallen in love with. This has been a consistent Ram organization characteristic and I hope it deosn't show up this year.

I am still fence sitting Caynine and I willing to stay there another couple of years now that it appears he is not taking the USC job. But some days, one wonders what the hell is going on with this enigmatic team.

 

[ozarkram]

Its hard to argue with stats. So I wont. I will speak only as a fan. I believe Coach V will be remembered for changing the game he was or is an innovator. While borrowing heavily from air coryell. How did he change the game? Speed. He brought blazing ,burning speed to the fore front. In doing so for one brief shining moment he ran rough shot over the NFL. And in letting the speed jenie outta the bottle, the game has never been the same. Fisher while a good solid coach had yet to leave a mark. Hopefully he will and with the Rams.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

OK Caynine,

Lets just say we give you the benefit of the doubt (and its a big benefit IMHO) and say Vermeil and Fisher are comparable in coaching skills. Where exactly do you factor in the rest of the coaches on staff for Vermeil and Fisher in this equation? Let's not gloss over the fact that each coach also hired all his other coaches as well. Like it or not that is part of the equation, and a head coach's ability to surround himself with quality coaches and convince said people to work with him instead of going elsewhere is an indication of how much faith these men have in him. Vermeil was able to secure the likes of Al Saunders and Mike White, who had been head coaches before working for Vermeil. Well respected Frank Gansz was our special teams coach. I don't know the idiot that is coaching special teams for our current squad, but I don't think I have to take that any further. And say what you want about Mike Martz as a head coach, but Shottenheimer wouldn't make a pimple on Mike Martz's butt as an OC.

Now before you say we're now comparing other coaches and not exclusively Vermeil to Fisher, as I said earlier, it is all part of the equation. I'm sure you wouldn't find too many here that aren't in agreement that Shottenheimer and Walton are twits.

Make all the statistical comparisons you want, at the risk of being redundant, the fact remains that Vermeil DID win a championship. What makes it all the more convincing is that it was at the expense of renowned (allegedly) Fisher.

Maybe if Fisher ever wins a championship then you have a viable argument. Until then you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Retroram52]

Yea BOSS429Mustang, the present STs coach is John Fassel and outside of Paul Boudreau (present )-Line coach) who is as good as or better than Jim Hanifan (who was also a head coach with the old St Louis Cardinals before they moved) who was the O-line coach under Vermeil. Saunders, White, and Hanifan were all previous head coaches and of course the OC was Martz who you already mentioned. Lovie Smith was the DC and Walton is not even in the stadium with that comparison. So, I am leaning toward Vermeil on the basis of this argument's evidence, BOSS429.

 

[mikey728]

I'm leaning toward: this kind of conversation only comes up this time of year if a team has excused itself from the playoff picture...I guess my feeling about it is...What fucking difference does it really make ???

 

[Caynine29]

I have seen these data before and you have a compelling argument, but the one intangible about Fisher that Vermeil always had was that Vermeil was a disciplinarian (just ask Demarco Farr) who always, or nearly so, had his team prepared. This was after he rid the team of no talent and brought many new faces over a two year period.

Fisher appears to be less disciplined but as you have stated, he is totally revamping a team that was in the shitter for over a decade. It may take awhile for the new talent to gel as you have stated. The jury is still out although many of us are getting restless.

Yes. Vermeil was a strict disciplinarian. That's well documented. It's also well documented, that the Rams didn't start having success until he changed his ways (in '99), loosened up, and became a "player's coach".

Another thing that gripes me that may not be entirely be Fisher is the tendency of the Rams to whiff on great players with this consistent gyrations in the draft to go after somebody that they have fallen in love with. This has been a consistent Ram organization characteristic and I hope it deosn't show up this year.

Fisher has only had one draft class play a full year. How can we possibly surmise that his drafting is poor with such a small sample size? How can we gauge any consistency? You gotta remember... in Tennessee, Bud Adams was calling the shots. Not Fisher. So, if you want to go back to his Titans days, understand that, that evidence is a bit tainted.

I am still fence sitting Caynine and I willing to stay there another couple of years now that it appears he is not taking the USC job. But some days, one wonders what the hell is going on with this enigmatic team.

Sitting the fence, I can understand. To be honest... I am as well. But, firing the guy? After one full season? That's just not sound business.

 

[Caynine29]

Its hard to argue with stats. So I wont. I will speak only as a fan. I believe Coach V will be remembered for changing the game he was or is an innovator. While borrowing heavily from air coryell. How did he change the game? Speed. He brought blazing ,burning speed to the fore front. In doing so for one brief shining moment he ran rough shot over the NFL. And in letting the speed jenie outta the bottle, the game has never been the same. Fisher while a good solid coach had yet to leave a mark. Hopefully he will and with the Rams.

Agreed 100%... Except the coach you've described here... the innovator... is Mike Martz.

 

[oaknightshockey1]

Just FYI on the main board this comes up as 'What Was So "Great" About Dick...'

 

[Caynine29]

OK Caynine,

Lets just say we give you the benefit of the doubt (and its a big benefit IMHO) and say Vermeil and Fisher are comparable in coaching skills. Where exactly do you factor in the rest of the coaches on staff for Vermeil and Fisher in this equation? Let's not gloss over the fact that each coach also hired all his other coaches as well. Like it or not that is part of the equation, and a head coach's ability to surround himself with quality coaches and convince said people to work with him instead of going elsewhere is an indication of how much faith these men have in him. Vermeil was able to secure the likes of Al Saunders and Mike White, who had been head coaches before working for Vermeil. Well respected Frank Gansz was our special teams coach. I don't know the idiot that is coaching special teams for our current squad, but I don't think I have to take that any further. And say what you want about Mike Martz as a head coach, but Shottenheimer wouldn't make a pimple on Mike Martz's butt as an OC.

Now before you say we're now comparing other coaches and not exclusively Vermeil to Fisher, as I said earlier, it is all part of the equation. I'm sure you wouldn't find too many here that aren't in agreement that Shottenheimer and Walton are twits.

Make all the statistical comparisons you want, at the risk of being redundant, the fact remains that Vermeil DID win a championship. What makes it all the more convincing is that it was at the expense of renowned (allegedly) Fisher.

Maybe if Fisher ever wins a championship then you have a viable argument. Until then you don't have a leg to stand on.

You're missing my entire point here. I'm not saying that Fisher is better than Vermeil, or Vermeil is better than Fisher. (Actually, their career arcs are nearly identical.) And yes... the coaching staffs selected are part of the equation, as well. But, can we wait 'til we have some playmakers out there doing their jobs before we pass judgement? Do the players account for any of the blame, these days? They should. I guess "fire the coach" comes off as kind of a copout to me, in such a short period of time.

My point is, do you really want to cut the legs out from underneath this overhaul, in it's infancy, for what? Because you "don't like" Jeff Fisher?

Answer me this... because really, it's the only important part of the debate... Are the Rams a better team now than they were before Fisher took over? Because that's what it's all about.

 

[Caynine29]

Just FYI on the main board this comes up as 'What Was So "Great" About Dick...'

LMAO!!!

 

[oaknightshockey1]

My first thought was what the hell are those Rams fans up to? Anyways, carry on.

 

[Retroram52]

"Answer me this... because really, it's the only important part of the debate... Are the Rams a better team now than they were before Fisher took over? Because that's what it's all about."

Yea Caynine, that is a solid question. I suspect that because we have been promised the "promise land" so many times by so many supposed miracle workers during that complete train wreck of a 15 year stretch by this organization with the Queen Idiot in charge that folks are pretty much done waiting another year. Sort of like the Jets and Cleveland fans. The axiom of "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" applies here. I know many fans are just tired of waiting and watching the same tired results after the cycle of looking to next year, hoping for better results, only to be disappointed all over again.

So, the answer to your question is probably a no, firing Fisher just a year and three quarters into a five year plan is indeed not very good business and I pretty sure you get the rest of the dynamic involved here but is in an interesting read. I guess than the what we are left with is more of the same for now. Good stuff Caynine!!

 

[ozarkram]

Agreed 100%... Except the coach you've described here... the innovator... is Mike Martz.

While you are correct. Martz is a disciple of Zampese and Turner and they are disciples of Coryell. Its kinda splitting hairs. I watched an interview with coach V a few years before he got back into football. And he was asked what he would do in todays game. (at that time) He answered paraphrasing, Speed the kids are much faster today. I would utilize that speed. Martz was just the vessel. The plan was in place.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

Are the Rams better now than they were before Fisher got here? The answer is yes they are. But it would have been very hard for them to be any worse. Following in the footsteps of Linehan, Haslet, and Spagnoulo would have made Donald Duck's uncle Scrooge look like a genius if he'd taken over at that point, so it's really not saying much when the standards were so low to begin with. But I do understand your point that it is ridiculous to fire a coach after only two years, or so it seems. And especially considering where the Rams were coming from before he arrived. But as Retro has pointed out multiple times, the patience of many Rams fans has worn thread bare at this point with so much ineptitude displayed by this franchise for so long. When I look at teams like New England, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, and Dallas (maybe not so much lately) that are consistent contenders year in and year out, winning the majority of Super Bowls among them, I ask myself "why not us" Again, as Retro has pointed out in previous posts---it's because the franchise through it's history doesn't seem to have a commitment to winning. After watching Fisher over this season, I just can't help feeling that this is more of the same, and its time for some decisive action no matter how ridiculous it appears to be.

As I said before, I hope I'm wrong and everybody says I don't know what the #@LL I'm talking about when Fisher wins the SB. But no matter how I spin it or rationalize it in my mind, I've lost faith in Fisher, and I believe we are in for more of the same next year unless he makes dramatic changes to his coaching staff, drafting philosophies, and coaching style. At this point I don't see any of that happening. Shottenheimer, Walton, and Bradford will all be back along with Fisher. What has gotten us into this mess this season? Mostly those 4 guys. If nothing changes next year how can we expect the results to be any different?

 

[Rambunctious]

Fisher is a far cry better than the last two head coaches the Rams have had but Vermeil is the man. He had that team hating him the first season because he was a hard ass. If you got out of line or missed your block you heard about it from him. Like Retro said just ask Farr what he thought of Vermeil. But when the team started to dominate the players were made into believers. To a man they love Dick Vermeil still today. I think back to Marine Corps boot camp. We had three Drill instructors one of them was the biggest A hole in the world. He was mean as a rattle snake. Two of them were a little easier on us, they would look the other way at times you know cut us some slack. The one I admire most and still am in contact with today is the mean A hole. He had better control of us and we learned much more from him.

 

[SJ76]

I love Vermeil. But let's not forget that his Super Bowl victory with the GSOT beat Fishers Titans by 1 yard because time ran out.

But people played hard for Vermeil. And he's also had a great offense - perhaps one of the best of all time.

And if we draft Lamar Miller and Alshon Jeffrey instead of Pead and Quick, our offense would be in a better place as well.

 

[ozarkram]

Had the titans scored and made the extra point. The game is tied. If the Rams get the ball first in overtime game over. If the titans get the ball first don't know our defense was really sucking wind at that point.

 

[Silas]

Vermeil had a great smile and a great supporting cast of coaches; not to mention they had players who knew how to play the game, a QB who knew what he was doing, a multi-talented RB and WR's who could catch. The Defense wasn't bad either.

 

[Retroram52]

Well stated Rambunctious and HOORAH!!! Semper FI!