THE TRADES THREAD

[JohnU]

Purkey was 23-5 in 1962 and would have won the Cy Young in most other years.
Knuckleballer.

I recall the 1962 spring training season and during a game, Gene Freese broke his ankle. The Sports Illustrated prominent headline was: THE REDS IS DEAD.

Later that year, the team still in contention in the first 162-game NL season, my stepdad took us to Crosley for a twinighter against the Cardinals -- huge crowd -- and Freese came off the DL that day. Coincidence mostly had us there that same day. The ovation for him was deafening when he came up to pinch hit. It simply shows how beloved that '61 team had been. Freese took a 4-pitch walk, which I suspect was a cookie that the Cardinal pitcher gave him.

In those days the players were much more accessible outside the city and fans from the Tri-State were quite fond of their favorites. I mentioned Ruth Lyons, who everyone knew, and she always had a Reds player on her show -- her fave was Ed Bailey, who got traded to SF for Don Blasingame at mid season in 61 ... and Ruth and her gang were NOT HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

Of course 1962 was the famous Giants-Dodgers pennant playoff series.

The Reds had some truly great talent -- and may have misguidedly (partially) led the the front office to think they could win without Frank Robinson -- who was dealt to Baltimore in winter of 65. Other factors in the Robby deal are less pleasant. But by then, Rose, Perez, Lee May, Bench ... a few other really great hitters, were coming up. Pitching was in short supply. Getting Pappas made sense in the Robby trade, though in retrospect, it was an awful deal.

One guy they traded that everybody loved was Vada Pinson. I never understood some of those trades since it was long before the big contracts. Curt Flood, btw, was once a Redleg.

As for Ted Williams, the odds of seeing him get a big hit were pretty good on any day of the week.

 

[WvuDieHard]

Shocked is all I can say at this point. Not sure what to make of this move. Latos and his injuries was not a bad move. Simon was not bad either but I don't think we got enough to let half your rotation go. That is putting a lot of stock in unproven guys. That is scary for the division we are in.

 

[JohnU]

Based on Bailey's arm, it is a risk.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I remember going to my uncles in the 60's for Sunday dinners- he was always drinking a Burger beer, listening to Waite Hoyt on Reds radio. Tons of memories and names and games. Cincinnati was all about the Reds back then. My first live game was in '69 at Crosley. The Braves. I've shared with some of you the impact that game made on me, moreover, the downstream twist of fate stemming from that day that will haunt me to my last breath.

Times change. The pace of life is faster now, and valuations of all things has changed. There wasn't as much to do back then, it seems, so something like a baseball team is less important to most people today. Money changed baseball in a lot more ways than people notice I think. Most people associate huge bucks and free agency with the Yankees, or maybe the first player in the early 70's ( a good trivia question) to sign a modern day free agent deal, but for me, it really started with ex-Red Curt Flood's lawsuit to oppose the old system of franchise ownership of players. The system is more fair now, but not sure it's made the game better for fans.

At any rate, the Reds have always been on a budget, and that's still true. I'm sure that drove the recent trades. Wether it's just a sell off, or an adjustment to budget higher priority signings, remains to be seen. I think a couple if the young players they got have some promise, but of course we all saw what Latos and Simon did, and it's hard to see immediate positive impact. I keep reminding myself that I thought George Foster and Cesar Geronimo were less than they turned out to be too. Morgan looked like a powerless little guy that wasn't going to make anyone forget Lee May. I thought KGJ was the best player in the game when he came to the Reds, and of course was disappointed. I've been wrong a lot. I'm hoping Jocketty is doing what is best for us less informed Reds fans here.

 

[JohnU]

I think you nailed it about the Reds budget.
It's not that they have expensive players, it's that they have expensive players who are sitting in the dugout healing while Cesar Izturis and Brayan Pena get all the playing time.
Either way this franchise goes, it's gonna be bad news.
You can lose cheap but you still lose.
You can lose expensive if all you have on the field is cheap.

 

[Hit-n-Run]

Before trading Jon Broxton at the trade deadline the projected 2015 payroll was around $136M. That appears to be the first domino in the series of moves we're seeing. The no-brainer declines of Ludwick and Hannahan's options combined with Broxton, Heisey, Ondrusek, and the two lateset trades have the current projected payroll at around $105M. How much is the new all-in?? My quess would be another $10-15M max.

 

[JohnU]

It seems that the only true LF on the market who's been mentioned is Nori Aoki.
I would imagine the discussion with him is over length of service -- 2 or 3 years.
That does NOT preclude a trade, but simply points out who's left as a free agent.

 

[JohnU]

The other guys to pay attention to are, besides Aoki:

Dexter Fowler
Justin Upton
Jose Tabata
Logan Morrison

 

[JohnU]

Curtis Partch signs minor league deal with the Giants.

 

[Hit-n-Run]

Curtis Partch has good stuff, but has lousy command. Seems like we say that about a lot of Reds' relievers.

He might be the only guy non-tendered that didn't give up a run in the Majors and wasn't arbitration eligible.

Most non-tendered players are arbitration eligible guys that the team thinks isn't worth what the Arbitrator will award. Curtis was still pre-arb and would make the league minimum. Usually a team will outright a player and assign him to the minors if he clears waivers if a roster move was needed.

The move shows that the Reds were definitely tired of Curtis Partch. Reminds me a little of the Jose Arredondo deal. As far as I know Jose didn't play anywhere last year.

 

[Hit-n-Run]

The Pirates would consider it a favor if a team would take Jose Tabata. They outrighted him, he cleared waivers and accepted a minor league assignment. The Pirates were hoping someone would claim him, but the Reds and 28 other teams weren't interested.

The Pirates still owe him $9M and can only get out from under it if they trade him at this point.

I think he's a good player. The money seems to be a deterrent for other teams interest.

 

[JohnU]

Tabata is a butcher in the outfield but he has decent offensive numbers. I am not real high on him otherwise. He will end up with somebody. It's hard to get out of baseball once you're in.

Ronny Cedeno is proof of that.

 

[Tubbs1518]

Take this how you want, but I've heard rumors out there of a Cueto to Boston for Craig and prospects.

 

[JohnU]

A rotation of Bailey, Leake and three other guys ... whew. I just hope Bailey is past his rehab.
Seriously, that would signal a real retreat for the season.

 

[eburg5000]

I think that would make it a fire sale, and if that happens, I see a 4th or 5th place finish. and you might as well dump the rest of the team for prospects.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Well, that would make zero sense to me. I have to believe Cueto is worth quite a bit more than Craig, and if Boston had many prospects, they wouldn't have spent the money on the roster they just signed, still without any pitching. If I knew I couldn't sign Cueto, I would at least avoid ticket sale disaster until trade deadline was looming, not start the sell off pre-spring training.

I honestly think there are some things the Reds could do without making a big move that would improve the team to contend for a wildcard at least. First, they have to get Votto to work everyday- even if he's a .280/15/75 player. Second, they have to get Bruce making enough contact that he can occupy a spot in the lineup that doesn't have a Ludwick or Cozart non-hitter "protecting" him in the lineup. If you get a giy that can't hit a ball out of the zone, but will swing anyway, the worst thing to do is put someone behind him that makes it a no-brainer NOT to throw the swingaholic a strike..ever. Explains the Bruce half HR output for me. They have to get BP a more logical offensive role- he's not an RBI guy, frankly because in those spots he pulls too much, without the power to make it worth it. Bunt Hamilton more. Have him take fewer 1st pitch strikes and put them in play. Look to walk in missed zone first pitches, instead. It would be a good idea to have Mesoraco shag a couple balls in LF as a second position, so he might get 500 AB instead of 380...and hit 35 HR instead of 25.

Since less than 10% of Series winners in the last half century did NOT have a LHSP, might be a good idea to get one of the top 5 LH pitching arms with 3 MLB quality pitches in recent history (Chapman), IN THE ROTATION, regardless of who closes. On a team that plays good D and doesn't hit much, GETTING a lead to hold is harder than KEEPING one. The stupidity of not doing this really is, there is virtually no reprocussions if it doesn't work- he can close a week after his last start. Can't go the other way in- season.

Stop expecting guys hitting under .250 to move a no-out runner at 2b without a bunt attempt, and stop expecting guys with average speed and no early signal from the 3b coach, to score from 2b on short singles.

That would make the Reds at least half a dozen games better....without spending a dime or costing any players.

 

[JohnU]

Reds have removed
Latos
Simon
Partch
Ondrusek
Broxton

from the pitching staff.

They may have added Desclafani.

Chapman is not going to be moved from the closer's job and Price has already said that.

Leaving Cueto, Bailey (rehab), Leake, Cingrani, Holmberg, Axelgrease, Parra, Jumbo, Hoover and ... um ... Marshall?

The pitching is not better.

What needs to be better is (a.) situational hitting (b.) baserunning (c.) consistency in the batting order.

I don't think Don Long has done anything to help the hitters, except maybe Frazier.
Neither did Brook Jacoby.
Or Dusty, who was a good hitter.
Price is clueless about the offense.

 

[jdwills126]

As a Tigers fan I hated giving up Crawford. He seems to be trending to being a legit pro pitcher. Suarez will be a dependable but unspectacular guy but I think he is to green and needed another year or two in the minors.

Wish the Tigers would have gotten Latos. If he comes back he has a better track record.

 

[JohnU]

Simon is not a bad pitcher. He was quite effective early in the year and just ran out of gas in an offense that expected him to throw a shutout. If he comes out like he did, he's a nice 3 guy in the rotation. Long-run, no ... but Suarez solves a quick problem for the Reds, thanks to having almost zero middle infield bench help.

 

[jdwills126]

Simon's second half worries me as a fan.

Crawford was the top prospect left after giving up a couple of arms for Soria. Detroit is all in and I am a little surprised they didn't go the FA route and move Suarez for relief help.