The ten worst moves of the offseason

[Broncos6482]

But please don't try to convince me Denver would rather have Sanchez starting this year.

I think they'd rather have Sanchez at his cap number than Osweiler at his cap number.

Cutting a player is the same as a restructure.

Umm, no it isn't. One you get to keep the player, the other he's no longer on the team.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Hard for me to retort w/o hearing why you think they missed...I gotcha on the mortgaging, explain a little further.

They missed by not planning for beyond 2015. I already mentioned they mortgaged very successfully for 15 by winning the SB. They had a bunch of money tied up in the D and little on the O minus Manning. They needed to see there were very few if any NFL caliber QBs coming out in the draft. Few if any quality QBs available in FA. They had to know PM was either retiring or likely going to be let go? Good for them or his contract going into the 16-17 season would've been brutal for Denver to absorb. So they needed to grab a decent mid level QB which is going to cost you 12 million +. Or not piss off Os and see if you get him in the 14-16 range even though cd kept telling us Os would get 10 mil or less. Options for mid level I'd say Fitz would've been the best option to work a deal for?

 

[Broncos6482]

They missed by not planning for beyond 2015. I already mentioned they mortgaged very successfully for 15 by winning the SB. They had a bunch of money tied up in the D and little on the O minus Manning. They needed to see there were very few if any NFL caliber QBs coming out in the draft. Few if any quality QBs available in FA. They had to know PM was either retiring or likely going to be let go? Good for them or his contract going into the 16-17 season would've been brutal for Denver to absorb. So they needed to grab a decent mid level QB which is going to cost you 12 million +. Or not piss off Os and see if you get him in the 14-16 range even though cd kept telling us Os would get 10 mil or less. Options for mid level I'd say Fitz would've been the best option to work a deal for?

What are you talking about? They did plan for beyond 15. They have the highest cap space for 17. How is that not beyond 15?

And yes, the quarterback situation sucked, but it's not like the Manning retiring blindsided them. They did plan ahead, they thought they had their guy, but it turns out they didn't. Bash them all you want for their misevaluation of Osweiler, but it's not accurate to say they didn't have a plan post Manning.

 

[cdumler7]

They missed by not planning for beyond 2015. I already mentioned they mortgaged very successfully for 15 by winning the SB. They had a bunch of money tied up in the D and little on the O minus Manning. They needed to see there were very few if any NFL caliber QBs coming out in the draft. Few if any quality QBs available in FA. They had to know PM was either retiring or likely going to be let go? Good for them or his contract going into the 16-17 season would've been brutal for Denver to absorb. So they needed to grab a decent mid level QB which is going to cost you 12 million +. Or not piss off Os and see if you get him in the 14-16 range even though cd kept telling us Os would get 10 mil or less. Options for mid level I'd say Fitz would've been the best option to work a deal for?

Again you are missing the point. The Broncos planned for the future in hoping that Osweiler this past year would become the player they had hoped. He did not become what they had hoped and were not going to overpay to try and keep an average player. That is how you get yourself in Cap Hell. If they had known that Osweiler wouldn't become the guy they were hoping (they thought maybe pairing him with Kubiak would really jump start his career) maybe they do work harder to try and be ready for the future beyond drafting a guy in the 7th round. It didn't quite work out like that. Also if they don't piss off Os there is a chance we don't win the Super Bowl. I would rather piss off Os and win the Super Bowl than keep him happy at the expense of winning the Super Bowl. Not sure what you are trying to get at there?

And again you bring in a guy like Fitz at say that $12 million a year that means you are sacrificing at other positions. That is another $8 million against the Cap if you sign him instead of Sanchez. So we are looking at maybe Derek Wolfe not being signed kind of thing. Or that of Okung and Stephenson our two new starting Tackles. Or that of Anderson, Hillman, and Crick.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

There is no what if though in this situation. You are not really bringing about a great argument. They had money devoted to both sides of the ball last year. On offense they had DT, Manning, and Clady all making very good money. So can't say they completely just sacrificed to give it to the defensive players. They stayed very balanced cap wise for the two sides

There is no what if though in this situation. You are not really bringing about a great argument. They had money devoted to both sides of the ball last year. On offense they had DT, Manning, and Clady all making very good money. So can't say they completely just sacrificed to give it to the defensive players. They stayed very balanced cap wise for the two sides.

They also haven't sacrificed the future for the now considering like we keep saying and you keep ignoring they have the most cap space of any team in the league next year. They also have a QB controlled cap so guys like Von Miller can make top money and the team can stay just fine.

For this year just look at what they have done. I know some of this is ignored by you but they signed Anderson, Hillman, Miller, Okung, and Wolfe. All key contributors either to the Broncos or another team last year. So you can say they were cap strapped which is a little true for this year but they still went and made some aggressive moves but were just very smart with their money.

And again you talk about draft picks and us trying to say they will be something great. All I said was they draft for the future just like the Patriots. Not like you guys have a patent on that and no other team can do it. And when I am talking talent on this team I am talking proven players. Again this is why Bucky Brooks thinks the Broncos are still a top-4 roster in the NFL because they have a lot of blue chip players like Miller, Ward, Marshall, Harris, Talib, DT, Sanders. These are all proven guys at their positions. This is not a what if game.

I guess even asking nicely you can't avoid a diatribe of regurgitate talk. I haven't been ignoring anything. I like many are tired of rehashing the same thing over and over with you.


For this year just look at what they have done. I know some of this is ignored by you but they signed Anderson, Hillman, Miller, Okung, and Wolfe. All key contributors either to the Broncos or another team last year. So you can say they were cap strapped which is a little true for this year but they still went and made some aggressive moves but were just very smart with their money.

And again you talk about draft picks and us trying to say they will be something great. All I said was they draft for the future just like the Patriots. Not like you guys have a patent on that and no other team can do it. And when I am talking talent on this team I am talking proven players. Again this is why Bucky Brooks thinks the Broncos are still a top-4 roster in the NFL because they have a lot of blue chip players like Miller, Ward, Marshall, Harris, Talib, DT, Sanders. These are all proven guys at their positions. This is not a what if game.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Few things...See to me you are making this too simple and I'm trying to show you how a team plans not only for this year but 3-years in advance and beyond.

Would I rather have Osweiler than Sanchez? Yes of course if we are talking straight up between the two Osweiler looks like the more promising option. We are not talking a straight up situation here though. We are talking at least $18 million a year for 4 years to Osweiler and that of $4.5 million for Sanchez for only this year and this year alone. So essentially just this upcoming season we are talking about Sanchez and Von Miller for the same price as what Osweiler will make cap hit wise. I will take Von Miller and Sanchez over that of Osweiler any day of the week. Then you throw in the Broncos beyond this year (I know how much you hate talking about the future) will have Von Miller and Lynch for close to the same price as that of Osweiler on a per year basis.

Now yes if the Broncos want to mortgage future years sign Osweiler this year. That means future years though when you have Osweiler and Miller both tied up in mega-deals the team is really going to struggle to sign anybody. With Lynch and Miller the team should be pretty good cap wise moving forward for the next few years.

You can't look at the Cap on just a one year basis when you are signing players. You have to look at how does this affect future years? Look at the Patriots for example since they have been the model team. You sign your core players and then everybody else is for the most part replaceable. That means you will let good not great talent walk out the door some and find a cheaper option to replace them. Doesn't mean that player will always be as good but the more your roster has good players signed to great contracts the harder it is to build a championship roster. A great example. Malik Jackson is a good player. I would have loved to have kept him. At the same time I'm not sure he is a top-7 talent at his position yet he is being paid that way. So the Broncos could have overpaid for him but then lost out on filling out the roster with other good players. He signed for $15 million a year. The Broncos were able to sign Anderson, Okung, Sanchez, Hillman, and Crick for that same value. Again that is how you have to view the cap in if I sign this player then where else do I have to cut from to fit this player?

Yes I try to keep it simple and not have full page length debates on everything. Suffice to say I'll keep it real simple. Denver obviously didn't plan in 2013 then. Agree? I already said in I think it was my first post today, that teams like Denver and NE normally plan 3 years out.

 

[cdumler7]

I wouldn't keep talking about it but you keep bringing it up and giving misinformation. Again please explain to me how they are in cap hell? You keep saying they didn't get Osweiler signed but as we see with this thread Osweiler was the worst off season signing according to PFF. So are you saying the Broncos made a mistake by not doing the worst contract of the off season? That just doesn't make sense to me. You can say it made them vulnerable at the QB position which hey is fine but no matter what the QB situation was going to be tricky for the Broncos this year. It is either overpay for a so far mediocre player or take your chances with a draft pick and a cheaper veteran. They chose the latter.

 

[cdumler7]

Yes I try to keep it simple and not have full page length debates on everything. Suffice to say I'll keep it real simple. Denver obviously didn't plan in 2013 then. Agree? I already said in I think it was my first post today, that teams like Denver and NE normally plan 3 years out.

They committed a 2nd round pick in 2012. No reason to contribute more in 2013 in my opinion. Just happened that their 2012 investment worked out in the sense that the player stepped in and didn't crash the boat but didn't work out in that player didn't play well enough for them to devote huge draft capital to keep things going.

 

[cdumler7]

And part of this is that the Cap is not a simple thing. When you are dealing with 100's of millions of dollars here and having to plan for the now and the future say 3-5 years out it is not going to be a simple answer. You keep trying to take a very complicated matter and make it simple. It just isn't that easy.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

I think they'd rather have Sanchez at his cap number than Osweiler at his cap number.



Umm, no it isn't. One you get to keep the player, the other he's no longer on the team.

You're saying that because Denver couldn't afford to pay him or anyone else starting QB money without restructures, cuts... Again I know it's hard for you to accept the near cap hell Denver is for this current year. The difference in money between cutting a player, restructuring and or adding an additional player for the one cut is semantics. That 3 million or so will need to reinvested one way or another. Thus my point that doesn't give any relief this year minus a few pennies possibly depending on the details.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

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[NWPATSFAN]

What are you talking about? They did plan for beyond 15. They have the highest cap space for 17. How is that not beyond 15?

And yes, the quarterback situation sucked, but it's not like the Manning retiring blindsided them. They did plan ahead, they thought they had their guy, but it turns out they didn't. Bash them all you want for their misevaluation of Osweiler, but it's not accurate to say they didn't have a plan post Manning.

Stay focused. What happened for 16? We've already addressed the future over and over and over. BTW nice to meet you Nostradamous.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

What are you talking about? They did plan for beyond 15. They have the highest cap space for 17. How is that not beyond 15?

And yes, the quarterback situation sucked, but it's not like the Manning retiring blindsided them. They did plan ahead, they thought they had their guy, but it turns out they didn't. Bash them all you want for their misevaluation of Osweiler, but it's not accurate to say they didn't have a plan post Manning.

They were not sure if PM was gone or not? I don't think they missed on the talent of Os. I don't think he fits Kubiacs system and I think he was butthurt by Denver starting PM upon his return. Look at how much they paid PM with the numbers he put up. If they didn't piss off Os and the cap #s for this year were not outrageous I think Os is a Bronco today.

 

[Broncos6482]

You're saying that because Denver couldn't afford to pay him or anyone else starting QB money without restructures, cuts... Again I know it's hard for you to accept the near cap hell Denver is for this current year. The difference in money between cutting a player, restructuring and or adding an additional player for the one cut is semantics. That 3 million or so will need to reinvested one way or another. Thus my point that doesn't give any relief this year minus a few pennies possibly depending on the details.

I'm saying that Denver didn't think he was worth the money that he got. It's not as simple as can they afford to pay player x amount of dollars, it's also is player worth x amount of dollars. If the Broncos had truly desired to, they absolutely could have worked out a contract to pay Osweiler what the Texans paid him. But they didn't think he was worth that so they didn't.

 

[cdumler7]

You're saying that because Denver couldn't afford to pay him or anyone else starting QB money without restructures, cuts... Again I know it's hard for you to accept the near cap hell Denver is for this current year. The difference in money between cutting a player, restructuring and or adding an additional player for the one cut is semantics. That 3 million or so will need to reinvested one way or another. Thus my point that doesn't give any relief this year minus a few pennies possibly depending on the details.

Few things wrong with this...

1) If the Broncos wanted to sign Osweiler they wouldn't have to restructure if they didn't want to. Look at the Chiefs this past season with Houston. His first year Cap Hit was $6 million. All the Broncos would have to do is structure Osweiler's contract to fit in year two with a bigger cap hit. Again this is why I say whenever talking Cap you have to talk about future years. The Broncos didn't view Osweiler as a guy that was worth committing huge money to because he is not a core player on the team.

2) Our Punter Colquitt. If we were to cut him after his dead money hit it saves the team $3.25 million. The next contract to come on the 53 man roster is a contract of $525,000. So in reality the team cap wise is truly saving about $2.75 million. Now some of that depends on the actual 53 that make the roster because say some UDFA guys make the roster then that number becomes less for the final 53 man on the roster and gives us a great cap savings. It is not a great savings but at the same time every little bit helps. Again that is money that can towards say Miller so that his cap hit this year can be that much bigger and future years much smaller to help our cap out that much more.

3) Obviously our definitions of Cap Hell are very different...Would you say that NE was in Cap Hell last year because they were very much up against the cap last year and couldn't hardly sign anybody? To me Cap Hell means this year and future years are in trouble because of cap decisions you have made in the past. It means that you are going to have to restructure contracts and keep pushing those cap hits to future years just to fit everybody this year. The Broncos haven't had to do that. Future years are not in jeapordy by decisions made this year.

 

[Broncos6482]

Stay focused. What happened for 16? We've already addressed the future over and over and over. BTW nice to meet you Nostradamous.

Here's a link to the 2017 cap numbers. As of right now, Denver has the most cap space. It's not a prediction, it's a fact.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

They missed by not planning for beyond 2015. I already mentioned they mortgaged very successfully for 15 by winning the SB. They had a bunch of money tied up in the D and little on the O minus Manning. They needed to see there were very few if any NFL caliber QBs coming out in the draft. Few if any quality QBs available in FA. They had to know PM was either retiring or likely going to be let go? Good for them or his contract going into the 16-17 season would've been brutal for Denver to absorb. So they needed to grab a decent mid level QB which is going to cost you 12 million +. Or not piss off Os and see if you get him in the 14-16 range even though cd kept telling us Os would get 10 mil or less. Options for mid level I'd say Fitz would've been the best option to work a deal for?

Tend to agree with most of Bronco post #123.

I think they had planned on '15 being PM's last year...one could argue they did piss off Osweiler by yanking him and, or delaying the announcement on PM not being there in '16, but that's a different debate I think. Once Os did sign with HOU, the scramble was on and I agree with you here, I don't think they got the best of the available stop gaps, but that's just my opinion others may feel differently.

If KC had Houston full blast from week 1...I would anoint them ACFW champs, and say DEN doesn't make the playoffs this yr, but as it stands now, I expect SD to rebound to a 8-9 win team, OAK to be a 9-10 win team and the same with KC and DEN...i.e. a dog fight this year and DEN to be in the mix.

 

[Broncos6482]

They were not sure if PM was gone or not? I don't think they missed on the talent of Os. I don't think he fits Kubiacs system and I think he was butthurt by Denver starting PM upon his return. Look at how much they paid PM with the numbers he put up. If they didn't piss off Os and the cap #s for this year were not outrageous I think Os is a Bronco today.

Manning signed a 5 year deal in 2012. They knew he didn't have a lot of time left, hence the drafting of Osweiler to groom him to take over once Manning retired.

Like I said, they obviously liked Brock or they wouldn't have even made an attempt to re-sign him. But they clearly didn't love him, and felt that they could allocate their cap space better somewhere else.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Again you are missing the point. The Broncos planned for the future in hoping that Osweiler this past year would become the player they had hoped. He did not become what they had hoped and were not going to overpay to try and keep an average player. That is how you get yourself in Cap Hell. If they had known that Osweiler wouldn't become the guy they were hoping (they thought maybe pairing him with Kubiak would really jump start his career) maybe they do work harder to try and be ready for the future beyond drafting a guy in the 7th round. It didn't quite work out like that. Also if they don't piss off Os there is a chance we don't win the Super Bowl. I would rather piss off Os and win the Super Bowl than keep him happy at the expense of winning the Super Bowl. Not sure what you are trying to get at there?

And again you bring in a guy like Fitz at say that $12 million a year that means you are sacrificing at other positions. That is another $8 million against the Cap if you sign him instead of Sanchez. So we are looking at maybe Derek Wolfe not being signed kind of thing. Or that of Okung and Stephenson our two new starting Tackles. Or that of Anderson, Hillman, and Crick.

Some fair points but no one was sure if PM was the right choice going into the POs and SB either. Agree it's easy to look back and say piss off Os because the result turned out so well. Since you like the what if game.
What if PM went down in flames? Everything else remained the same. Does Denver go after Os instead of letting him walk? You keep telling me how much cap $ Denver has next year. Certainly 14-18 if negotiated sooner with Os for the next 4-5 years would be a good deal?

 

[Broncos6482]

Some fair points but no one was sure if PM was the right choice going into the POs and SB either. Agree it's easy to look back and say piss off Os because the result turned out so well. Since you like the what if game.
What if PM went down in flames? Everything else remained the same. Does Denver go after Os instead of letting him walk? You keep telling me how much cap $ Denver has next year. Certainly 14-18 if negotiated sooner with Os for the next 4-5 years would be a good deal?

I think Os wanted out the moment he was benched, and it was going to be difficult for the Broncos to bring him back regardless of how much they were willing to spend. Best chance to re-sign him would have been to place the franchise tag on him and get Von Miller re-signed before he hit free agency. But with the tag unavailable, Os was most likely gone.