OU at WVU should have been postponed

[TrollyMcTroller]

and you still don't get it

is it too much to ask for you to actually understand my argument rather than always trying to guess what you think i am saying.

my whole argument has been that the reasons why conferences add schools and the reasons why schools change conferences do so for far different reasons.

for schools leaving, academics is the driving factor, the importance of academics is a factor but a much smaller factor for conferences when they are looking to add.

Interesting theory, but I'll tell you the same thing now, that I did the last time you said that... It isn't about academics, it's about money. Conference realignment is all about media markets (I believe the Texas fan mentioned that above) which in turn is all about money. It's about expanding viewership for larger TV network contracts (money) it's about getting more teams in a conference so you can have more bowl eligible teams (money) it's about starting conference based TV networks (money)

That's the driving force behind almost everything. Sure their are a couple of intercollegiate grudges also affecting things, and sure the academics get a passing nod too. but it comes down to the money, honey.

 

[john01992]

Yes, they made their moves based on TV markets. Conference realignment has nothing to do with academics. Not sure why you're hell bent on thinking this. The networks do not give two shits about academics, if they did, the Ivy League would be the highest paid conference ever. However, ESPN and Fox do not give two shits about academics. If the B1G cared about academics, they would not have extended an invite to Nebraska, seeing how NU was the 8th ranked school academically in the Big 12 and is not recognized by the AAU. The B1G desperately wanted Texas b/c of the TV market Texas would bring, plus the rich recruiting grounds the B1G could get into. Sure, we're an excellent academic institution, but that wasn't the B1G's primary concern. Stop being a fucking dumbass on purpose.....

no...no...no & no......

wvu & tcu have some of the smallest TV markets out there. calling them schools that add value because of their large tv markets is absurd. wvu is in a very small state, tcu is a small religious private school in a state that has plenty of football schools. their value was in athletic performance.

the b12 had ZERO incentive to expand for tv markets because
1. they had no plans for a future b12 network
2. they already had a contract deal in place with fox. the pac, b10, sec & acc all expanded so that they could have leverage in their contract negotiations and charge subscriber rates for those states with a future conference network. the b12 had neither of those to deal with and thus no logical reason to make markets their top priority. if the b12 was interested in markets than byu, new mexico, & colorado state would have been the schools to look at.

the networks don''t give a shit about academics....but the conferences do. these are schools with very powerful academic factions and multi billion $$$ endowments. they won't let 20 mill a year in TV $$$ screw around with that. they have existed long before these mega tv deals and will continue to exist long after.

shit on NU all you want. but they were aau at the time and there were very few academic options that the b10 had. and seeing as they took RU/UMD as well. who else could they have taken? you can make a case for mizz but go check their academic rankings. neck & neck with UNL. people act like conferences being academically orientated means theres this magical bar that says "you must be this tall to enter" however that is not the case at all. all it means is that conferences will continue to focus on the best academic options remaining.

as for texas. they would be insane not to try. they have the best combination of academics/athletics/markets. the b10 probably did poke around but i doubt that UT was ever their main argument. they most likely expected texas to say no, didn't wanna deal with the ego or geographical outlier issues that had to be dealt with.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

And if you'll recall everyone agreed that this season, Cuse's OOC was significantly better than years past. (mostly due to the 3 game stretch in Maui)

How'd that schedule look the last few years?

Clearly you're busy making up more bullshit about conference realignment, so I'll tackle this one...


Here's last years OOC:

1 @SDSU
2 Wagner - in-state
3 Princeton
4 Colgate - in-state
5 @Arkansas
6 Eastern Michigan
7 Long Beach State
8 Monmouth
9 Canisius - in-state
10 Detroit
11 Temple
12 Alcorn State
12 Central Connecticut State

Whoooooooooweeeeee! What a doozy! Where are all those rivals? Where are all the in-state schools? Did they relocate Long Beach to Long Island?

 

[john01992]

Interesting theory, but I'll tell you the same thing now, that I did the last time you said that... It isn't about academics, it's about money. Conference realignment is all about media markets (I believe the Texas fan mentioned that above) which in turn is all about money. It's about expanding viewership for larger TV network contracts (money) it's about getting more teams in a conference so you can have more bowl eligible teams (money) it's about starting conference based TV networks (money)

That's the driving force behind almost everything. Sure their are a couple of intercollegiate grudges also affecting things, and sure the academics get a passing nod too. but it comes down to the money, honey.

you can say that.but the difference between you & I is that i have actually dug deep into this shit and have come to the conclusion that academics are the driving factor. The one theme in conference realignment is that admins are always getting quoted saying "academic association" is the biggest reason for leaving. I have told you this before and you dismissed it as a public relations ploy. However that is not the case because i have seen it said on the record, off the record, casual statements, public interviews, freedom of information act released emails. I have seen it said in quotes from as far back s the 70s, i even saw it in a leaked memo from a school making a realignment move in the lower divisions. It happens so frequently that you simply can not dismiss is as unimportant or not a major factor.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

the networks don''t give a shit about academics....but the conferences do. these are schools with very powerful academic factions and multi billion $$$ endowments. they won't let 20 mill a year in TV $$$ screw around with that. they have existed long before these mega tv deals and will continue to exist long after.

What hackneyed blog did you read this on, and why do you feel so compelled to repeat it?

Endowment have FUCK ALL to do with this. Nothing that happens in conference realignemnt is going to effect any university's endowment in the least. The endowments aren't touched by the university or their athletic departments (which more often than not are completely separate from a money standpoint) so why you keep acting like the endowments are at risk is beyond me. (you'll forgive the figure of speech.. it isn't literally beyond me... I know exactly why you're doing it, but that's beside the point)

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

you can say that.but the difference between you & I is that i have actually dug deep into this shit and have come to the conclusion that academics are the driving factor. The one theme in conference realignment is that admins are always getting quoted saying "academic association" is the biggest reason for leaving. I have told you this before and you dismissed it as a public relations ploy. However that is not the case because i have seen it said on the record, off the record, casual statements, public interviews, freedom of information act released emails. I have seen it said in quotes from as far back s the 70s, i even saw it in a leaked memo from a school making a realignment move in the lower divisions. It happens so frequently that you simply can not dismiss is as unimportant or not a major factor.

Sure I can, because that's how the world works johnny.

People in positions of power lie. They lie frequently and most of them lie very well. That's part of their job. When you are the "face" of any multi-million dollar operation, your primary job duty, is to shovel bullshit and smile while you're doing it.

The fact that you think there is even a remote possibility that a president, AD, or anyone else higher than a custodian would ever suggest that an academic institution would ever say the athletic department did anything without citing academics as a reason goes to show either your naivety or your stupidity (I'll leave it up to the reader to decide)

In other breaking news, every single politician ever has always said that everything he did or didn't vote for was done in the best interest of his constituency.

 

[SEC Official]

I think the Florida @ Wisky game should have been postponed because we had 3 of our stars out...

But that isn't the way it works...

 

[john01992]

Clearly you're busy making up more bullshit about conference realignment, so I'll tackle this one...


Here's last years OOC:

1 @SDSU
2 Wagner - in-state
3 Princeton
4 Colgate - in-state
5 @Arkansas
6 Eastern Michigan
7 Long Beach State
8 Monmouth
9 Canisius - in-state
10 Detroit
11 Temple
12 Alcorn State
12 Central Connecticut State

Whoooooooooweeeeee! What a doozy! Where are all those rivals? Where are all the in-state schools? Did they relocate Long Beach to Long Island?

we did play a fewer amount of in-state teams that year. heres the teams id write off......
temple they kinda a traditional rival and share a big east connection
princeton we have some history with them
arkansas was be/sec challenge
detroit has to do with dave bing
sdsu major ooc matchup

yeah so 5 "no business playing them" games. hardly unusual for other power programs.

 

[SEC Official]

Clearly you're busy making up more bullshit about conference realignment, so I'll tackle this one...


Here's last years OOC:

1 @SDSU
2 Wagner - in-state
3 Princeton
4 Colgate - in-state
5 @Arkansas
6 Eastern Michigan
7 Long Beach State
8 Monmouth
9 Canisius - in-state
10 Detroit
11 Temple
12 Alcorn State
12 Central Connecticut State

Whoooooooooweeeeee! What a doozy! Where are all those rivals? Where are all the in-state schools? Did they relocate Long Beach to Long Island?

Actually Arkansas was a top 10 team at home last year (they just sucked on the road).. that Cuse game went down to the wire and it required a miracle last 5 mins from Cuse to barely pull that one out.

 

[john01992]

Sure I can, because that's how the world works johnny.

People in positions of power lie. They lie frequently and most of them lie very well. That's part of their job. When you are the "face" of any multi-million dollar operation, your primary job duty, is to shovel bullshit and smile while you're doing it.

The fact that you think there is even a remote possibility that a president, AD, or anyone else higher than a custodian would ever suggest that an academic institution would ever say the athletic department did anything without citing academics as a reason goes to show either your naivety or your stupidity (I'll leave it up to the reader to decide)

In other breaking news, every single politician ever has always said that everything he did or didn't vote for was done in the best interest of his constituency.

oh so stuff that gets written in internal emails to each other that no one else is supposed to see are lies as well???? lemme guess....a rough d2 athletic director knew ahead of time that those emails were going to get leaked. bullshit. at this point you are just trying to deny what is clearly out there. why would a notre dame AD of all people lie? he was not attached to any conference (at the time of those comments at least) and said word for word exactly what I am saying.

you can say "this is how the world works" but think about it for a moment. you are discussing 150 year old institutions that have existed for quite some time. institutions that consider 5 extra mill a year to be in conference A vs conference B as chump change. running a major FBS program is like running a multi billion dollar company. You have so much to factor in when making a major decision like this. academics as well as their name brand are worth A LOT more than anything they have to gain $$ wise for the athletic department.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

oh so stuff that gets written in internal emails to each other that no one else is supposed to see are lies as well???? lemme guess....a rough d2 athletic director knew ahead of time that those emails were going to get leaked. bullshit. at this point you are just trying to deny what is clearly out there. why would a notre dame AD of all people lie? he was not attached to any conference (at the time of those comments at least) and said word for word exactly what I am saying.

you can say "this is how the world works" but think about it for a moment. you are discussing 150 year old institutions that have existed for quite some time. institutions that consider 5 extra mill a year to be in conference A vs conference B as chump change. running a major FBS program is like running a multi billion dollar company. You have so much to factor in when making a major decision like this. academics as well as their name brand are worth A LOT more than anything they have to gain $$ wise for the athletic department.

Do you have some leaks from Duke or other private schools? Because every president and AD in the country at a public university is very well aware that their emails are subject to the whims of the press and FOIA requests. You wanna know why a Notre Dame AD would lie? Because the alumni would eat his ass for breakfast if he didn't, you dumb shit. The rest of them aren't lying to appease the conferences you dumb fuck. Why would Notre Dame's independent status fave fuck all to do with anything? Jiminy Christmas, you're fucking stupid.


You are finally right about one thing... running a big FBS program does mean factoring in a lot of different things. And the FBS programs (that's the athletic programs) don't give a rat's ass about academics. Thad Matta and Urban Meyer, couldn't care less if OSU lost its AAU status, dropped out of the top 100 public universities, and enrollment dropped by 50%. As long as the athletic budget is still fine and OSU is still in the hunt for BCS bowls and Final Fours, then they don't give a flying fuck about the academics. Neither does the AD. And while the President does (if for no other reason than he probably has performance based bonuses in his contract) he also knows that the academics won't affect the athletics one iota, the athletics and the revenue it generates can absolutely have an impact on the academics. So it makes sense to do what is best for the athletic department. Academics isn't driving the bus. It's just along for the ride.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

we did play a fewer amount of in-state teams that year. heres the teams id write off......
temple they kinda a traditional rival and share a big east connection
princeton we have some history with them
arkansas was be/sec challenge
detroit has to do with dave bing
sdsu major ooc matchup

yeah so 5 "no business playing them" games. hardly unusual for other power programs.

okay.. how bout the year before.

1 Fordham - in-state
2 Manhattan - in-state
3 Albany - in-state
4 Colgate - in-state
5 Virginia Tech
6 Stanford
7 Eastern Michigan
8 Florida
9 Marshall
10 George Washington
11 NC State
12 Bucknell
13 Tulane

Are you under the impression that Syracuse is the only school that has "history" with other programs (that's you're excuse for some of those games, right?) Are you under the impression that Syracuse is the only school that participates in "conference challenges?" Are you under the impression that Syracuse is the only program that plays against programs with coaching connections? Why do you think these are valid excuses for Syracuse but not for other programs. Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, Ohio State, Michigan State, Florida, North Carolina, and plenty of other good programs all have those hurdles when scheduling too. Yet they seem to manage to put together a decent schedule most years,

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

you can say "this is how the world works" but think about it for a moment. you are discussing 150 year old institutions that have existed for quite some time. institutions that consider 5 extra mill a year to be in conference A vs conference B as chump change.

Find me a president or AD that will go on record as saying he doesn't want an extra $5,000,000 for his institution, and I'll show you a president or AD that is getting fired tomorrow.

The idea that 5 million dollars (no matter how big the operating budget) is insignificant to any entity (that actually has to balance the books at the end of the fiscal year) is a damn myth. As in "you fucking fabricated it you silly bastard."

 

[john01992]

Do you have some leaks from Duke or other private schools? Because every president and AD in the country at a public university is very well aware that their emails are subject to the whims of the press and FOIA requests. You wanna know why a Notre Dame AD would lie? Because the alumni would eat his ass for breakfast if he didn't, you dumb shit. The rest of them aren't lying to appease the conferences you dumb fuck. Why would Notre Dame's independent status fave fuck all to do with anything? Jiminy Christmas, you're fucking stupid.


You are finally right about one thing... running a big FBS program does mean factoring in a lot of different things. And the FBS programs (that's the athletic programs) don't give a rat's ass about academics. Thad Matta and Urban Meyer, couldn't care less if OSU lost its AAU status, dropped out of the top 100 public universities, and enrollment dropped by 50%. As long as the athletic budget is still fine and OSU is still in the hunt for BCS bowls and Final Fours, then they don't give a flying fuck about the academics. Neither does the AD. And while the President does (if for no other reason than he probably has performance based bonuses in his contract) he also knows that the academics won't affect the athletics one iota, the athletics and the revenue it generates can absolutely have an impact on the academics. So it makes sense to do what is best for the athletic department. Academics isn't driving the bus. It's just along for the ride.

so a notre dame AD would et eaten alive for breakfast for not commenting on why he believes utah colorado, nebraska, & syracuse are leaving conferences? WTF kinda logic is that???? you can pull this crap all you want but at the end of the day your entire theory is baseless. my argument has plenty of stetments to back it up (which you dismiss as lies) which is convenient of you huh? don't like what school admins say so you just dismiss is as not truthful. but lets look at the actual moves.

would you really call CU or utah academic outliers in the pac12? of course not. they upgraded their academics and joined a conference dominated by public landgrants

would you call su or pitt academic outliers in the acc? fuck no. they are a private school, smaller landgrant oriented league. that is basically pitt in a nutshell (a team that can't get into the b10 anyways)

looking at RU where do they belong? large campus, aau flagship with heavy research ==> how is that not the b10 in a nutshell.

UMD may fit in culturally with the acc from an athletics standpoint. but from an academic standpoint they were an academic outlier in that conference and the textbook example of a b10 school

missouri- they are pretty close to being a b10 style school as well. and they were very public in expressing their desires to join the b10 and made it clear the b10 was their #1 choice. the b10 didn't take them and they settled on the SEC. for arguments sake of the remaining b12 schools we can only assume that isu, ksu, ku, tech & mizz were available for the sec at this time. Mizz is the clear cut academic front runner of those schools.

texas/OU- the pac16 was not as much of a shotgun marriage as you think. austin at times is a very liberal city that is a lot closer to berkley, pasadena, boulder, seattle & eugene than most other b12 locations. OU is in a more conservative area however that school has had an interest in joining the pac12 even without texas. osu & tech are more the tag along kids however they are a lot closer to being in the same class as uo, ore st. asu & wsu and their inclusion wouldn't break the conference academically.

texas a&m. how could you not say this was about academic association. one of the most conservative schools in the b12 was very vocal that they wanted absolutely nothing to do with "the left coast" schools. and while we are at it the pac has straight up thumbed its nose as baylor & byu because of their religious affiliation. how does that NOT sound like academic association is playing a factor here dude?

louisville, tcu & wvu ==> all moves of desperation, but i wouldn't write it off as an academic downgrade for any of those schools.

you really don't have shit. you can claim all you want but the quote don't match it and the trends that we have seen so far don't match it. if it was all money & academics did not play a factor......

fsu would be in the b12. because that was indeed the textbook definition of a school making an academic downgrade for the sake of athletics

 

[john01992]

Find me a president or AD that will go on record as saying he doesn't want an extra $5,000,000 for his institution, and I'll show you a president or AD that is getting fired tomorrow.

The idea that 5 million dollars (no matter how big the operating budget) is insignificant to any entity (that actually has to balance the books at the end of the fiscal year) is a damn myth. As in "you fucking fabricated it you silly bastard."

it is not insignificant because 5 mill vs 1 bill is not that much different......

but the unmeasured value of things like their traditional rivalries, academic association, etc.

a free 5 mill....sure...which prez wouldn't take that. but lets be brutally honest here. in conference realignment there is a lot more to the picture than just that 5 mill. historic rivalries, fanbase reaction, alumni donations, travel costs, academic association, conference stability, fanbase reach, leaving a conference they chartered etc.

do you think michigan would trade their rivalries with osu/msu for $5 mill? show me a admin who says that and I will show you someone who gets fired tomorrow......

do you think that alabama would leave the SEC for 5 mill????

how much value do you think oregon puts on being associated with the academic powers of ucla, usc, stanford & cal.

those are just the stuff that the schools consider priceless. but what about the stuff that can be priced? like being in a conference where most of your alumni are located (donations) or lower travel costs? recruiting advantages etc.

now lets get real.....if you want me to keep debating me you better start using your brain. cuz I won't keep doing this until you get smarter. if you seriously think that conference realignment is a simple "heres 5 mill extra with no strings attached" type deal then you are fucken delusional.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

you really don't have shit. you can claim all you want but the quote don't match it and the trends that we have seen so far don't match it. if it was all money & academics did not play a factor......

fsu would be in the b12. because that was indeed the textbook definition of a school making an academic downgrade for the sake of athletics

Slow your roll there, sparky.

I've not simply dismissed the quotes as lies. I've given you motivation as to why they would need to lie. It's not a matter of convenience for me, its a matter of necessity for them. Like you said... these guys are in charge of multi-million (sometimes billion) dollar institutions. They have state legislatures, board of trustees, booster and donors, alumni and students to answer to. If you think they're just dropping casual quotes all over the place, you're fucking nuts. These people speak as deliberately as any politician.

That said, you've shown where a couple of schools moved to conferences that were better fits academically. Then you follow that up by showing how Mizzou landed in the SEC (not a good fit) and then list a bunch of schools that moved for political and religious reasons and then say that it's about academics. Religion and politics aren't the same thing as academics.

And finally, this stupid strawman bullshit is getting really fucking old. I've told you probably half a dozen times now that nobody here is claiming that academics don't play a part in conference realignment. So stop acting like you've won some battle by proving they played a roll. You claimed they were the driving factor, and I said they aren't. You've yet to show that they are anything more than an afterthought.

I know you've read a few blogs and a few wikipedia articles, and I've seen you repeatedly throw around several terms without having any fucking clue what their significance is, so it's pretty clear, you think you have this whole thing figured out, but you're confidence isn't justified. You forgot one of the oldest sayings around... You can't believe everything you read. And unfortunately for you, it appear you do believe everything you read, and you've yet to figure out you can't always take everything at face value. I hope you learn that lesson before you get done with school, otherwise you're going to find the real world a very unpleasant place to live.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

it is not insignificant because 5 mill vs 1 bill is not that much different......

but the unmeasured value of things like their traditional rivalries, academic association, etc.

a free 5 mill....sure...which prez wouldn't take that. but lets be brutally honest here. in conference realignment there is a lot more to the picture than just that 5 mill. historic rivalries, fanbase reaction, alumni donations, travel costs, academic association, conference stability, fanbase reach, leaving a conference they chartered etc.

do you think michigan would trade their rivalries with osu/msu for $5 mill? show me a admin who says that and I will show you someone who gets fired tomorrow......

No they wouldn't trade it for 5 million. you know why? Because they'd lose far more than that in alumni donations. The point being? It still comes down to the fucking almighty dollar.

do you think that alabama would leave the SEC for 5 mill????

5 mil a year? All things being equal. Yes. they would. But all things aren't equal, and it would cost Alabama a fucktonne (that's a British fuckton in case your spelling-nazi instincts were kicking in) more than 5mil every year.

how much value do you think oregon puts on being associated with the academic powers of ucla, usc, stanford & cal.

Probably not nearly as much as they value the money generated by the athletic rivalries with those programs.

those are just the stuff that the schools consider priceless. but what about the stuff that can be priced? like being in a conference where most of your alumni are located (donations) or lower travel costs? recruiting advantages etc.

Oh, so now it is about the money. Glad to see you finally came to your senses.

now lets get real.....if you want me to keep debating me you better start using your brain. cuz I won't keep doing this until you get smarter. if you seriously think that conference realignment is a simple "heres 5 mill extra with no strings attached" type deal then you are fucken delusional.

Nobody ever claimed it was that simple, but nice attempt at another strawman, you disingenuous shitbag.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Riddle me this, shitburger:

You say academics are the driving force behind conference realignment.
I say money is the driving force behind conference realignment.

Point me to the FBS schools that will lose money because of conference realignment. Then you might have a good case. (especially if they moved voluntarily and weren't forced to change affiliations due to other schools going on a money grab)

 

[john01992]

Riddle me this, shitburger:

You say academics are the driving force behind conference realignment.
I say money is the driving force behind conference realignment.

Point me to the FBS schools that will lose money because of conference realignment. Then you might have a good case. (especially if they moved voluntarily and weren't forced to change affiliations due to other schools going on a money grab)

riddle me this shitbagger

the pac10 gave only 2 unconditional invites in conference realignment. (colorado & texas).the rest (ou, tech & osu) were all conditional on texas joining. now tell me? why is it that the p10 gave away those unconditional invites only to the 2 best academic schools of those 5 whereas the major football power (ou) and 2 schools that had clearly good fb programs (osu & tech) did not? you say it is all about the $$$$. so explain that one.

FBS has exponential $$$ increase. It is very hard for a school/conference to lose money. the b12 lost 4 major schools and ended up with a big payday. wherever a school lands they will make more money it is just a question of could they have made more by going elsewhere. Syracuse could of made more in the b10 had they joined however they were very quick to get into the ACC rather than wait around for a b10 invite. byu in the pac12 would of been better than utah but the p12 would have none of that. the p12 had the chance to get just ou/osu and the p12 flat out rejected that <== i think you might have your winner there

 

[dcZONAfan]

Actually Arkansas was a top 10 team at home last year (they just sucked on the road).. that Cuse game went down to the wire and it required a miracle last 5 mins from Cuse to barely pull that one out.

i'm sorry, but what exactly does that mean? I know, I know, they play really well at home. But cmon, how can you quantify that, when they are at home, they are a top 10 team? Every team plays better at home, and arkansas maybe bumps their game up a notch more than most others. But if they suck on the road, that mostly means they aren't very good in general and top teams aren't going to lose to them no matter where the game is.