OT: Politics and other stuff that is sure to piss everyone off

[VTscores]

So, its your position that Rangel was criminally charged?

And, you dig in to defend that assertion?

He was charged with ethics violations, some of which are crimes. He was convicted of those violations in an ethics trial, before an ethics panel. He was found guilty of failing to report income, of using government staff and resources to raise money for a private library named after him, and of occupying four rent-controlled apartments, and Congress censured him for it.

So if your question is whether I'm willing to stand by calling that behavior "criminal", the answer is a resounding yes, because it was.

 

[Rocky]

He was charged with ethics violations, some of which are crimes. He was convicted of those violations in an ethics trial, before an ethics panel. He was found guilty of failing to report income, of using government staff and resources to raise money for a private library named after him, and of occupying four rent-controlled apartments, and Congress censured him for it.

So if your question is whether I'm willing to stand by calling that behavior "criminal", the answer is a resounding yes, because it was.

Jethro Tull said it best with his fifth studio album.

 

[VTscores]

Jethro Tull said it best with his fifth studio album.

Exactly. Just to point out another of your mistakes, Jethro Tull is a band, not a guy.

The lead singer's name? Ian Anderson.

 

[Rocky]

Exactly. Just to point out another of your mistakes, Jethro Tull is a band, not a guy.

and you are still Thick As A Brick

 

[VTscores]

and you are still Thick As A Brick

You're the brick in this relationship. You just don't realize it.

Kind of like you don't realize that Rangel is guilty of anything.

 

[Rocky]

Don't get lonely in here.

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[VTscores]

Don't get lonely in here.

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Thanks. We'll all be better off.

 

[Rocky]

Hey, it works, lol

VTscores
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[VTscores]

Good, now listen to what I really think...

Just jerking your chain. But it's got to kill you to think that I'm talking about you.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

 

[VT_Football_Fan]

I present to you 3 reasons to vote Repub:

 

[VTscores]

Is Rocky going to chime in and remind us how sexy Pelosi is again?

I don't think so.

 

[Hokie200proof]

P0rn stars are Republican VTFF?

And Rocky and VTscores... Jesus. This thread was all about the devolution of debate and intelligent discussion in this country and how that does us all a disservice... and you both went out and did it and then ended it with a mutual ignoring? WTF?

GD. If someone presents you with a claim that you disagree with, come back and ask for sources, or cite your own sources to prove the claim to be false or a misrepresentation of the facts. More importantly, if you're wrong and someone proves it to you, be civil enough to admit it. No one has it all figured out and many of us get our information and "facts" from dubious places. It's ok to say you're wrong. You guys just spent two pages arguing over semantics.

Rangel might be a dirty fuck, or it might be all made up and it's a conspiracy. Either way, he's not the first Democrat to have serious ethics allegations levied against him. He certainly won't be the last... and the EXACT same can be said about Republicans. You can't tell me with a straight face that the rest of Congress is honorable and clean when it comes to ethics, political contributions, lobbying gifts, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure there are some good politicians out there, but far too many of them know how the game is played and are smart enough to not get caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

That's the point. If you're call yourself a Democrat, Republican, "liberal", "conservative", Capitalist, Socialist, Communist, etc, you're not beholden to all of the actions of that group... just like many people who call themselves Hokies don't support Mike Vick after the dog-fighting fiasco. If someone in your group does something they shouldn't, or turns out to be a criminal, the shame is on the individual. Some people will chose to blame the group, but that's unfairly judging and stereotyping a whole group for the actions of one or a few people.

Political discussion has become a "gotcha" game and it helps no one. If you can prove one claim wrong in another person's argument it doesn't mean that everything that person said is invalid. No one is right all the time. No one. Rocky, VTscores... Please keep that in mind and un-ignore each other.

Ignoring each other and immediately discounting all another person has to say, even if you consider that person to have extreme views, is how we got this Pro-Sports political mentality in the first place. People are choosing to identify with all of those labels (Donkey, Elephant, Lib, etc, etc) and they follow it like we all follow College Football... can anyone convince you to be a Hurricane fan? Fuck no. It shouldn't be like that in philosophy, politics and civic debate. You should be able to change your mind. It's not weakness, it's intellectual discovery. If you hold onto your views so tightly that you will never let them go, you're more of a cultist than a member of a political party. And everyone is wrong from time to time.

Alright, stepping off soap box. Feel free to call me names, label me and disregard all that I've said.

 

[VTscores]

Hey, I just said that Rangel is a scoundrel, and had to go 10 rounds over the nuanced meaning of "criminal".

I refuse to accept that we have to overlook a certain amount of lawbreaking as "par for the course". I know a lot of malfeasance takes place in Washington, but if Congress members get caught, they get the label and whatever meager punishment a Congressional committee has backbone enough to give them. In Rangels case, it was a formal tongue-lashing from Nancy Pelosi. (Something that Rocky apparently craves.)

In my humble opinion, we give Congress too many passes as it is.

 

[hokiegrad]

Hey, I just said that Rangel is a scoundrel, and had to go 10 rounds over the nuanced meaning of "criminal".

I refuse to accept that we have to overlook a certain amount of lawbreaking as "par for the course". I know a lot of malfeasance takes place in Washington, but if Congress members get caught, they get the label and whatever meager punishment a Congressional committee has backbone enough to give them. In Rangels case, it was a formal tongue-lashing from Nancy Pelosi. (Something that Rocky apparently craves.)

In my humble opinion, we give Congress too many passes as it is.

Now in the interests of and self improvement, stop being defensive, calm down, and go think about what hokie200proof said a bit more. When you two can talk nicely again...

 

[VTscores]

"Rangel might be a dirty fuck, or it might be all made up and it's a conspiracy. Either way, he's not the first Democrat to have serious ethics allegations levied against him. He certainly won't be the last... and the EXACT same can be said about Republicans. You can't tell me with a straight face that the rest of Congress is honorable and clean when it comes to ethics, political contributions, lobbying gifts, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure there are some good politicians out there, but far too many of them know how the game is played and are smart enough to not get caught with their hands in the cookie jar."

I don't accept the "We're all sinners so I'm no different than anyone else because it's all really just a big grey area" defense. I just don't. If you get caught, tried, and found guilty, the least you can do is admit that you're wrong. You deserve whatever punishment or label the public decides to give you.

Reminds me of "The Fugitive" when the warden of the prison asks "Who in here is innocent?" and everyone raises their hand.

R. Allen Stanford, who was just convicted of running the biggest Ponzi scheme in history and robbing investors of $7 billion was sentenced yesterday to 110 years in prison. You know what he said?

“I am and will always be at peace with the way I conducted myself in business,” he said before the judge handed down the sentence." “I did not run a Ponzi scheme. I didn’t defraud anybody,” Stanford said. Tell that to the people who lost their retirements as Stanford jetted around eating caviar. He'll be on a different diet now.

We can't let people slide on the "everybody is doing it" defense. Even if corruption is rampant, if someone gets caught, they deserve whatever punishment that gets meted out.

To bring this back around to football, I'm sure that's what the guys at UNC are saying "everybody does it", too, but that's really not a valid defense.

 

[VTscores]

"The Obama administration will stop deporting and begin granting work permits to younger illegal immigrants who came to the U.S. as children."

This should be interesting. Obama seems to be pulling out all the stops to keep the conversation on social issues instead of economic ones.

U.S. will stop deporting some illegal immigrants who came here as children - The Washington Post

 

[hokiegrad]

I don't accept the "We're all sinners so I'm no different than anyone else because it's all really just a big grey area" defense. I just don't. If you get caught, tried, and found guilty, the least you can do is admit that you're wrong. You deserve whatever punishment or label the public decides to give you.

Nor should you. But I don't think anyone here has proposed that defense or would disagree with you on that.

 

[Hokie200proof]

"Rangel might be a dirty fuck, or it might be all made up and it's a conspiracy. Either way, he's not the first Democrat to have serious ethics allegations levied against him. He certainly won't be the last... and the EXACT same can be said about Republicans. You can't tell me with a straight face that the rest of Congress is honorable and clean when it comes to ethics, political contributions, lobbying gifts, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure there are some good politicians out there, but far too many of them know how the game is played and are smart enough to not get caught with their hands in the cookie jar."

I don't accept the "We're all sinners so I'm no different than anyone else because it's all really just a big grey area" defense. I just don't. If you get caught, tried, and found guilty, the least you can do is admit that you're wrong. You deserve whatever punishment or label the public decides to give you.

Reminds me of "The Fugitive" when the warden of the prison asks "Who in here is innocent?" and everyone raises their hand.

R. Allen Stanford, who was just convicted of running the biggest Ponzi scheme in history and robbing investors of $7 billion was sentenced yesterday to 110 years in prison. You know what he said?

“I am and will always be at peace with the way I conducted myself in business,” he said before the judge handed down the sentence." “I did not run a Ponzi scheme. I didn’t defraud anybody,” Stanford said. Tell that to the people who lost their retirements as Stanford jetted around eating caviar. He'll be on a different diet now.

We can't let people slide on the "everybody is doing it" defense. Even if corruption is rampant, if someone gets caught, they deserve whatever punishment that gets meted out.

To bring this back around to football, I'm sure that's what the guys at UNC are saying "everybody does it", too, but that's really not a valid defense.

If you've read what I've said before, I believe that almost every politician we have right now is part of the system and that system no longer (or, perhaps, never) serves the greater good. We, voters, Americans, are part of the reason why this has become the status quo. In part, it has come to be because we waste our time trying to deride and discredit one of the only two major political parties that we've been given to choose from. We have become an enthralled audience in a political theater where we waste our time rooting for our side to win, with little to no thought spent on deciding if our side is right.

With that in mind, I have no interest in discussing the criminal behavior of one or two of the members of what I believe to be a corrupt system as a whole. I don't care who they're fucking, what embarrassing thing they accidentally said over a hot mic or their catchy built-for-mass-consumption one-liners. I care about how they govern... and they have all failed. Throw it all out.

Yes, those who commit crimes deserve to be punished and there I whole-heartedly agree with you. But where to begin? With a little investigation I think it would be hard to find someone innocent or someone who truly works for the common good in our current government. I would say that it has proven to be a corrupt system where money (in whatever form you'd like to present it, be it direct payments or campaign contributions) gets you political influence and favors. Any such system is not a fair system and it's certainly not serving the public interest. So, we need to change the laws to create a fair system, right? As we've discussed in the beginning of this thread, changing laws, sadly, rests with those who are already reaping the benefits from the status quo. It feeds off of itself, and I don't see the American public changing any of it in my lifetime. We're all too comfortable to do anything about it and we've always got examples of worse places to live. That doesn't make the problems with the American government any less real or any less important.

 

[VTscores]

If you've read what I've said before, I believe that almost every politician we have right now is part of the system and that system no longer (or, perhaps, never) serves the greater good.

I agree. And part of the solution is to stop accepting the "everyone does it" defense.

I'd support term limits, but most people don't want to muck with the status quo, so I don't really see a positive change coming down the pike. And now the Supreme Court has ruled that anonymous money in our political system is OK in unlimited quantities. Isn't that just bribery?