OBP vs BA

[TREFF]

I would quote everything Smithy said. . But that'd take too long. .
I'll simply say I'm in agreement with his views on the debate, but at the same time I honestly don't care much one way or the other. I do see OBP as a more pure reflection of a quality batter, but it's by such a small margin that I really couldn't give 2 shats

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If its not false, it's limited.

Either way, I think it's dum. Hahaha

But its neither false or limited... It is just one specific skill set...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would quote everything Smithy said. . But that'd take too long. .
I'll simply say I'm in agreement with his views on the debate, but at the same time I honestly don't care much one way or the other. I do see OBP as a more pure reflection of a quality batter, but it's by such a small margin that I really couldn't give 2 shats

My strong opinion here is only for the thread... I like debating these things... I do believe BA is much superior, but OBP leagues won't stop me from playing and enjoying...

And i agree and have stated in the OP that OBP is a better indicator for the better hitter, I just don't think that is a strong enough reason to dismiss the strategy and balance that OBP ruins...

 

[Reverend Jim]

Milk covering all my favorite topics, I said all I have to say here

http://fantasyassembly.com/2014/12/12/on-base-percentage-over-batting-average/

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Milk covering all my favorite topics, I said all I have to say here

http://fantasyassembly.com/2014/12/12/on-base-percentage-over-batting-average/

just to bad we disagree in almost all of them!!!

 

[TREFF]

Milk covering all my favorite topics, I said all I have to say here

http://fantasyassembly.com/2014/12/12/on-base-percentage-over-batting-average/

An excellent read Jim! And on point, including the other stay changes you purpose. I still can't buy the QS, but not because you don't make a convincing argument. .I simply disagree with what a QS should be. But your dead on balls accurate with all of it!

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Just wondering Treff and Jim, do you see what I am saying about the Balance and strategy??

The major point is that on draft day when you form your team, OBP comes much more naturally to your team because it follows the ADP better... With BA, you need to go out of your way sometimes to create balance, this is where strategy comes to play... you have more of a choice on whether to sacrifice power, or BA...

The problem with OBP, is it is much harder to sacrifice OBP for power or vice versa, so a team that is not centered on power will find it much harder to get an advantage in OBP, even if they draft OBP... An owner will always be more willing to add the power bat if OBP is similar, even if lower, and the window of players that can hurt you are much smaller...

I just think BA creates much better balance and creates more strategy than OBP... So I don't mind not increasing the importance of a walk(which the value is included in runs)...

 

[Reverend Jim]

I can say I get what you are saying, I just don't agree that batting average creates more strategy.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I can say I get what you are saying, I just don't agree that batting average creates more strategy.

Do you mind elaborating. Would be nice to see the other view of the actual points I am making, maybe you can turn me!!

 

[TREFF]

I can say I get what you are saying, I just don't agree that batting average creates more strategy.

I agree. .. and as to your other question about elaborating on it. .I don't really see the need. If one doesn't think it creates more strategy, then the logical choice is the stat which better reflects a good/bad day for a hitter, and that's really all that needs to be said.

Like the good Rev stated. .I see exactly what you're trying to say, I just totally disagree.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Treff, I understand other people don't get their kicks and jollys by debating theoretical fantasy. But I actually enjoy this stuff more than talking about players. And what gets me is when debating people use there own reasoning and never actually issue their opponents issues that they bring up. Again I get that is because you just don't care, but when the issues are not brought up it is unclear if you even understand the other argument. And then progress will never be made. I may be dead wrong with the points I am making, but if nobody wants to debunk them then I will always have these thoughts. The way I see it, my arguments are not even debatable and is 100% correct. And the choice is between balance and strategy vs better indicator. And if that is the choice then I am ok with anyone's choice including mine.
Just a rant!!!

 

[Reverend Jim]

Just wondering Treff and Jim, do you see what I am saying about the Balance and strategy??
The major point is that on draft day when you form your team, OBP comes much more naturally to your team because it follows the ADP better... With BA, you need to go out of your way sometimes to create balance, this is where strategy comes to play... you have more of a choice on whether to sacrifice power, or BA...
The problem with OBP, is it is much harder to sacrifice OBP for power or vice versa, so a team that is not centered on power will find it much harder to get an advantage in OBP, even if they draft OBP... An owner will always be more willing to add the power bat if OBP is similar, even if lower, and the window of players that can hurt you are much smaller...
I just think BA creates much better balance and creates more strategy than OBP... So I don't mind not increasing the importance of a walk(which the value is included in runs)...

You want an example? Last season the MBBRL switched to OBP. I never used it before but came up with my own strategy to counter the people that stock up on power hitters. With picks 1, 2, 4 & 6 I took pitching, traded my #3 pick Freeman for another ace after the draft. The hitters I drafted were selected to give me SB, Runs and OBP, but each with a little pop to keep me competitive in HR's. I dominated pitching and finished in the top 5 for those 4 categories, RBIs was the only category I fell short on.

I created a balanced lineup just as I would using batting average. In using batting average I can create the same balance countering my low average power hitting guy with a high average MI player. Saying BA requires more strategy is a false statement. Both OBP and BA require the same amount of strategy, just as using Saves+Holds over saves requires a different strategy and mindset. The day you stop thinking outside the box and thinking you can add any old average OBP guy because he has power is the day you've lost.

I've learned in the 20 years I've been playing that every category, every position, every league size has a strategy and every leagues scoring system has a flaw. You can come up with the end all be all of scoring categories and I will find a way to manipulate it to my advantage. I say this for one simple reason; no category is perfect. Some will say roto is better because the best team doesn't always win in H2H, well the best team doesn't always win in baseball. Some like saves over Saves+Holds but I outlined an entire article arguing the point just as I did for QS over win.

Do I oppose using batting average? Nope, used it for years and refuse to draft players that will give me an average below my personal Mendoza line. Do I like OBP more? So far yes, but like I said earlier it is just another category and I will find a way to maximize the potential for.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Rev, thanks for entertaining me...

everything you wrote is 100% true, and i too don't oppose playing in OBP leagues... but the converse is where the strategy and balance comes into play more...
Building a power lineup, it is much easier to build one with OBP than BA... BA forces you to balance your power lineup more, while also bringing in a whole new skill set into the talent pool... BA also Hurts more power hitters than OBP does, which is needed since the power skill set already has an advantage in 2+ categories...

and do to the fact that Power with OBP is much easier, even for teams like you who tried to counter the advantage of power, the strategy does not necessarily give you the advantage as it should... It only brings you onto even footing in that category... countering a category, should give you an advantage elsewhere, otherwise whats the point of it...


Lastly, since OBP minimizes the hurt on many in the power skill set, owners are now more willing to take these players over others who are not power hitters...

 

[TKOSpikes]

I really don't get it Milk. Can you give an example using players? You talk like it's law. I don't see how it's easier one way or the other.

 

[TKOSpikes]

If I need power, it doesn't matter what cat is being used. I will draft Chris Carter over Denard Span.

 

[TKOSpikes]

Plus, in H2H, cats don't matter as much as they do in standard Roto. Anything can happen in a week.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I really don't get it Milk. Can you give an example using players? You talk like it's law. I don't see how it's easier one way or the other.

If I sound like my talk is the law, just realize that I am making a strong argument for the thread sake... I like debating these topics, so I am taking my view and making it seem like going OBP is the worst thing that has ever happened to fantasy baseball...

 

[TREFF]

Milk. . I wanna be % 100 straight with you, because I used to be very similar. ..
when your so adamant that your % 100 right and that is not even debatable in your eyes, your broadcasting a very defiant message, and no one wants to rationally debate a subject in those tones. It's very non productive, and 99.9 percent of the time escalates into name calling and childish crap. You may feel is showing your passion, but the message being received is "I'm right, your wrong, and I want to get into an argument about it until I beat you into submission or piss you off,." Which is why I stated I didn't feel any further elaboration is necessary. Some times, especially when is obvious to all parties involved that no one's opinion is going to be changed, it's best to just state the disagreement, give your reasoning, and let it be. .. agree to disagree in other words.

Now this particular situation, everyone in disagreement has started their reasons, either by pointing to the Good Reverend's article. . Which is spot in, well worded, and based on sound rationale rights. . Or by stating their own personal reasons.. all of which have basically been disregarded by you, which is fine, your opinion and you're entitled to it. But that's where the elaboration should end. . You've gotten your reasons as to why we disagree, you don't agree with those reasons, that's cool, so be it. Why continue to push it? Why risk escalating such a trivial topic into something it doesn't need to be?
Call it constructive criticism, call it advice from some one who used to do the same thing before he realized life is stressful enough without stuff like this thrown in. . Call it what you will, just remember, There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. That's where I'm leaving it, and bowing out of this conversation

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Milk. . I wanna be % 100 straight with you, because I used to be very similar. ..
when your so adamant that your % 100 right and that is not even debatable in your eyes, your broadcasting a very defiant message, and no one wants to rationally debate a subject in those tones. It's very non productive, and 99.9 percent of the time escalates into name calling and childish crap. You may feel is showing your passion, but the message being received is "I'm right, your wrong, and I want to get into an argument about it until I beat you into submission or piss you off,." Which is why I stated I didn't feel any further elaboration is necessary. Some times, especially when is obvious to all parties involved that no one's opinion is going to be changed, it's best to just state the disagreement, give your reasoning, and let it be. .. agree to disagree in other words.

Now this particular situation, everyone in disagreement has started their reasons, either by pointing to the Good Reverend's article. . Which is spot in, well worded, and based on sound rationale rights. . Or by stating their own personal reasons.. all of which have basically been disregarded by you, which is fine, your opinion and you're entitled to it. But that's where the elaboration should end. . You've gotten your reasons as to why we disagree, you don't agree with those reasons, that's cool, so be it. Why continue to push it? Why risk escalating such a trivial topic into something it doesn't need to be?

Call it constructive criticism, call it advice from some one who used to do the same thing before he realized life is stressful enough without stuff like this thrown in. . Call it what you will, just remember, There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. That's where I'm leaving it, and bowing out of this conversation

Just for my knowledge, and maybe I can learn how to debate better, but where have I ever disregarded any point anyone else made?? All I asked is to debate the actual points I am making...

And if I have shown any disrespect to anyone, they must know that that is not my intention at all... I just wanted to debate something...

 

[TREFF]

Just for my knowledge, and maybe I can learn how to debate better, but where have I ever disregarded any point anyone else made?? All I asked is to debate the actual points I am making...

And if I have shown any disrespect to anyone, they must know that that is not my intention at all... I just wanted to debate something...

The way I see it, my arguments are not even debatable and is 100% correct.

That is basically what I was referring to. Not saying you disrespected anyone and not trying say anything negative in any way. . Just letting you know that statements such as these don't breed healthy debates, and that's probably why your not getting the responses you're hoping for, that's all