Kiper and McShay's podcast

[skinsdad62]

This is simply not true.

it most definitely is

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

it most definitely is

Every time I try to move on I get dragged back in again. Dad poster after poster have tried to explain to you that the price to move up from 9 to 5 is substantial. Yet you continue to stick to your guns that there is no difference in value between the 5th pick and the 9th. If you don't get it by now you obviously aren't going to get it so can we PLEASE move on?

 

[Sharkinva]

Every time I try to move on I get dragged back in again. Dad poster after poster have tried to explain to you that the price to move up from 9 to 5 is substantial. Yet you continue to stick to your guns that there is no difference in value between the 5th pick and the 9th. If you don't get it by now you obviously aren't going to get it so can we PLEASE move on?

And both Dad and I have tried to explain the reality that potential and actual value tend to vary quite a bit.

Sure if some one WANTS to trade up to number 5 from number 9, the pick COULD be worth more. But at the end of the day you cant count on a trade down. And the talent difference between the 5th and 9th player taken is usually minimal at best. BUt if there is no trade, then what the cost to move up or what we MIGHT get in return has no bearing.

 

[skinsdad62]

Every time I try to move on I get dragged back in again. Dad poster after poster have tried to explain to you that the price to move up from 9 to 5 is substantial. Yet you continue to stick to your guns that there is no difference in value between the 5th pick and the 9th. If you don't get it by now you obviously aren't going to get it so can we PLEASE move on?

there is no value if there is no trade DGF . i cant make it any simpler for you . if we pick at 5 it will come down to who is the better player not some mythical "value " you woulda coulda shoulda had because in essense it didnt exist because there is no trade available to even rate what the value is

the difference in TALENT NOT VALUE is negligible and that is what the HELL we are talking about IF YOU MAKE THE STINKING PICK YOU PICK SCHERF IF THERE IS NO TRADE AVAILABLE , because there isnt a huge gap in talent for him at 9 then there is at 5 comprende ?

you will never make the case to me that those 4 OLBS are better players then scherf . STOP WASTING YOUR TIME

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I was right, you just don't get it. There is a chart assigning value to each pick. Clearly the 5th rated player has more value than the 9th because he has been determined to be the better prospect. A trade is not necessary to determine value, it's already been determined by the ranking order. I don't know how large that gap is this year between the 5th rated player and the 9th. But 2 things I do know is that it exists and you sure don't know how large it is either. But to claim it does not exist is nothing short of idiotic. Sorry, that's the truth.

If you want to ignore the value chart and all the other supporting evidence that the 5th pick is more valuable than the 9th then be my guest. I really do not feel like arguing the obvious anymore.

Peace.

 

[skinsdad62]

I was right, you just don't get it. There is a chart assigning value to each pick. Clearly the 5th rated player has more value than the 9th because he has been determined to be the better prospect. A trade is not necessary to determine value, it's already been determined by the ranking order. I don't know how large that gap is this year between the 5th rated player and the 9th. But 2 things I do know is that it exists and you sure don't know how large it is either. But to claim it does not exist is nothing short of idiotic. Sorry, that's the truth.

If you want to ignore the value chart and all the other supporting evidence that the 5th pick is more valuable than the 9th then be my guest. I really do not feel like arguing the obvious anymore.

Peace.

of course i am ignoring the chart because its crap it isnt the end all be all too anything . there is no value if no one is paying

and how are these guys ranked ? you are telling me that winston and marriotta are better then williams ?

hogwash , pundits are putting them there based on needs on the field there isnt a difference in talent .

 

[Sharkinva]

I was right, you just don't get it. There is a chart assigning value to each pick. Clearly the 5th rated player has more value than the 9th because he has been determined to be the better prospect. A trade is not necessary to determine value, it's already been determined by the ranking order. I don't know how large that gap is this year between the 5th rated player and the 9th. But 2 things I do know is that it exists and you sure don't know how large it is either. But to claim it does not exist is nothing short of idiotic. Sorry, that's the truth.

If you want to ignore the value chart and all the other supporting evidence that the 5th pick is more valuable than the 9th then be my guest. But I could do without the lecture.

Peace.

Just because you break a $5 into 3 singles and a bunch of Quarters, sure you could get two Cheese Burgers from McDonalds and Fries from Burger King, there is nothing that says you will have a better meal than just getting the $5 box from KFC to begin with.

 

[skinsdad62]

the grand canyon gap is getting smaller for the pundit worshipers . kiper has scherf mocked at 6 now

 

[Lonewate44]

DGF....


I have said this before, but maybe you didnt see it ...or chose not to believe it.....BUT....... Just becasue the "experts say his is 9 doenst mean Jack shit!!! What matters is what scott thinks...If he takes him at 5...I would be in the assumption that he had him rated at 5 or 6 or so....Hell...he could be rated 3 as far as me, you , or anyone knows...In which case, we are getting a STEAL in the 5 hole......
to use your analagy...we are paying for a hamburger, but getting a double hamburger with Cheeses and all the fixings

 

[Skin'EmAll]

What I still can't get over is the experts thinking Mariota will get passed the Titans, lol.
This Zach Mettenberger kid has yet to win a game in the pros. I don't see him going in as the 2015 starter.
Really the only team I'm worried about in the draft is the Jaguars. Once williams is there, they will drop fowler and take him. OR if somehow they pass, someone may trade picks with the Raiders.

If we survive these two scenarios, and don't get 1000 picks for our 5th, Williams is a possibility.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

DGF....


I have said this before, but maybe you didnt see it ...or chose not to believe it.....BUT....... Just becasue the "experts say his is 9 doenst mean Jack shit!!! What matters is what scott thinks...If he takes him at 5...I would be in the assumption that he had him rated at 5 or 6 or so....Hell...he could be rated 3 as far as me, you , or anyone knows...In which case, we are getting a STEAL in the 5 hole......
to use your analagy...we are paying for a hamburger, but getting a double hamburger with Cheeses and all the fixings

Oh I totally get that. And I have said about 20 times now if SM takes him at 5 I'm fine with it because I know that he considers him the BPA at the 5 spot. I have also said almost as many times that the only exception to BPA rule is the QB position. I have mentioned the Colts and Luck, the Packers with Rodgers and I have said at least twice that nobody considers the 2 QBs the best players but teams reach on QBs because they are so important. But this has apparently fallen on deaf ears and it's kind of tough to argue with posters who chose to ignore my posts.

But we aren't talking about QBs with the Redskins pick, we are talking about an OL vs and other positions. So bringing up Winston and MM is a waste of bandwith, it has nothing to do with what we are disagreeing about. What I have been arguing for too long is the ridiculous notion that there is no difference between the 5th best player and the 9th best player and that the 5th pick in the draft is worth the same as the 9th pick. That is just wrong and I'm not backing off of my position on that. To claim the draft value chart is crap is simply ignorance. It's the Bible of the draft room and every team references it.

 

[skinsdad62]

Oh I totally get that. And I have said about 20 times now if SM takes him at 5 I'm fine with it because I know that he considers him the BPA at the 5 spot. I have also said almost as many times that the only exception to BPA rule is the QB position. I have mentioned the Colts and Luck, the Packers with Rodgers and I have said at least twice that nobody considers the 2 QBs the best players but teams reach on QBs because they are so important. But this has apparently fallen on deaf ears and it's kind of tough to argue with posters who chose to ignore my posts.

But we aren't talking about QBs with the Redskins pick, we are talking about an OL vs and other positions. So bringing up Winston and MM is a waste of bandwith, it has nothing to do with what we are disagreeing about. What I have been arguing for too long is the ridiculous notion that there is no difference between the 5th best player and the 9th best player and that the 5th pick in the draft is worth the same as the 9th pick. That is just wrong and I'm not backing off of my position on that. To claim the draft value chart is crap is simply ignorance. It's the Bible of the draft room and every team references it.

and if the did then explain the RG3 trade ? the chart is a guideline at best guideline

to bow down to it and worship it is the play of a lost sheep big difference to bible and guideline

to tell me that deon sanders was leaps and bonds better or worse then barry sanders is foolsplay you couldnt have gone wrong with either

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

and if the did then explain the RG3 trade ? the chart is a guideline at best guideline

to bow down to it and worship it is the play of a lost sheep big difference to bible and guideline

to tell me that deon sanders was leaps and bonds better or worse then barry sanders is foolsplay you couldnt have gone wrong with either

RGIII was a QB. i've already explained the QB part. Teams overpay for QBs becuase they are so important.

Then you trot out an example from 3 decades ago to prove that the 3rd and 5th pick were very similar. Really, that's your argument? By the way Deion Sanders was the 5th pick in that draft. The 9th pick was something called Sammie Smith, a RB for the Dolphins who did nothing. You could not have possible helped me make my point any better when you used the 1989 draft as your example.

 

[Lonewate44]

Oh I totally get that. And I have said about 20 times now if SM takes him at 5 I'm fine with it because I know that he considers him the BPA at the 5 spot. I have also said almost as many times that the only exception to BPA rule is the QB position. I have mentioned the Colts and Luck, the Packers with Rodgers and I have said at least twice that nobody considers the 2 QBs the best players but teams reach on QBs because they are so important. But this has apparently fallen on deaf ears and it's kind of tough to argue with posters who chose to ignore my posts.

But we aren't talking about QBs with the Redskins pick, we are talking about an OL vs and other positions. So bringing up Winston and MM is a waste of bandwith, it has nothing to do with what we are disagreeing about. What I have been arguing for too long is the ridiculous notion that there is no difference between the 5th best player and the 9th best player and that the 5th pick in the draft is worth the same as the 9th pick. That is just wrong and I'm not backing off of my position on that. To claim the draft value chart is crap is simply ignorance. It's the Bible of the draft room and every team references it.

I understand what you are saying..about the QB.....I too believe the 5th pick is worth way more then the 9th pick...but ......just becasue alot of MOCKS have Sharef at 9....doesnt make him him the 9th best player in the draft......I believe he is better then the 9th best player in the draft....taking out the qbs at 1 and 2.....would make him at 7.......and if they take him at 5 instead of 7....not as bad as taking the mystical #9 player.....and I believe sharef is defiently better then the some of the people being mocked ahead of him.......

I live in IOWA and have seen him play alot (not a hawkeye fan)...but I have to admitt...the guy is pretty fucking good...and that pains me to say as an AVID Hawkeye HATER!!!!! He is a finisher, and a pancake blocker!! He was injured all last year and played through the knee injury......He could be a very good RT in the NFL... LT...very doubtful, but he can handle the right side im sure....and if he can't...then well slide him inside, and we have or RG job sewn up for years to come

 

[Sharkinva]

I understand what you are saying..about the QB.....I too believe the 5th pick is worth way more then the 9th pick...but ......just becasue alot of MOCKS have Sharef at 9....doesnt make him him the 9th best player in the draft......I believe he is better then the 9th best player in the draft....taking out the qbs at 1 and 2.....would make him at 7.......and if they take him at 5 instead of 7....not as bad as taking the mystical #9 player.....and I believe sharef is defiently better then the some of the people being mocked ahead of him.......

I live in IOWA and have seen him play alot (not a hawkeye fan)...but I have to admitt...the guy is pretty fucking good...and that pains me to say as an AVID Hawkeye HATER!!!!! He is a finisher, and a pancake blocker!! He was injured all last year and played through the knee injury......He could be a very good RT in the NFL... LT...very doubtful, but he can handle the right side im sure....and if he can't...then well slide him inside, and we have or RG job sewn up for years to come

None of that Logic stuff Wate. We are not allowed to use that when discussing Scherff. The concensus of the minds of power is, we either trade down, or take a pass rusher. It has been deemed that anything else is unacceptable. [/end sarcasm]

 

[Lonewate44]

None of that Logic stuff Wate. We are not allowed to use that when discussing Scherff. The concensus of the minds of power is, we either trade down, or take a pass rusher. It has been deemed that anything else is unacceptable. [/end sarcasm]

Gotcha Shark......But I am Lonewate44...The true voice of reason on this board...Knower of all....and the Authority on all that is good and right!!!

I get so sick of the "experts" saying it has to be an edge rusher..... Really?? We lost orakpo so we Have to replace him.....well we can get an edge rusher in the 7th...that could luck out and get us his 1.5 sacks we got last year!!!! Orakpo, although a good team mate, and from what I hear... a good guy in the community...never lived up to his PRE DRAFT HYPE.....when healthy he was a good player, but not much more......Now if they would have called all the times he was held.......that would make a difference im sure


I wouldnt mind a trade down at all.....but if we don't... I want a difference maker...not play maker...but a difference maker!!!!

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

None of that Logic stuff Wate. We are not allowed to use that when discussing Scherff. The concensus of the minds of power is, we either trade down, or take a pass rusher. It has been deemed that anything else is unacceptable. [/end sarcasm]

Again if you feel he is the 5th best player and want him as the pick I can't argue. But once again this has not been the discussion. I have been arguing the claim that there is no difference between the 5th best player and the 9th best player or in your case (at least early in the discussion) it's OK to grab a lower rated player if it fills a glaring need. The other disagreement is the wisdom of taking a guard with the 5th overall pick, which is the position many project him to probably end of playing including the poster you just quoted. Again you had no problem with taking a guard at 5 because it fills a need, I continue to maintain you can get close to the same player in round 2-3 will landing a possible great player at 5 in addition to the solid guard.

Again totally different discussions than what you are referring to here.

 

[Lonewate44]

Again if you feel he is the 5th best player and want him as the pick I can't argue. But once again this has not been the discussion. I have been arguing the claim that there is no difference between the 5th best player and the 9th best player or in your case (at least early in the discussion) it's OK to grab a lower rated player if it fills a glaring need. The other disagreement is the wisdom of taking a guard with the 5th overall pick, which is the position many project him to probably end of playing including the poster you just quoted. Again you had no problem with taking a guard at 5 because it fills a need, I continue to maintain you can get close to the same player in round 2-3 will landing a possible great player at 5 in addition to the solid guard.

Again totally different discussions than what you are referring to here.

Well those same "experts" said Gallery was a can't miss LT for the team that took him for 10+ years....and....he was moved to guard..........the fucking "experts" may know a little more then us just becasue they have the time and tools to "analize" these players...but in reality....they are giving their opinion, and nothing more.....

I didnt say he would be a guard.....said that would be a fall back option....If taken at #5....he would be taken to be a RT...with the fallback at guard....and as I just stated above.....this has happened before......and more then my 1 from above

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Well those same "experts" said Gallery was a can't miss LT for the team that took him for 10+ years....and....he was moved to guard..........the fucking "experts" may know a little more then us just becasue they have the time and tools to "analize" these players...but in reality....they are giving their opinion, and nothing more.....

I didnt say he would be a guard.....said that would be a fall back option....If taken at #5....he would be taken to be a RT...with the fallback at guard....and as I just stated above.....this has happened before......and more then my 1 from above

And again it's widely acknowledged that the Raiders overpaid for a guard. And this is a very real possibility, that Scherff needs to be moved to guard. Steve Hutchison was the best guard prospect in our lifetime and he went mid teens. IMO you don't use the 5th pick on a player that could very well end up as a guard. Shark and others disagree, even if he ends up at guard it was a good pick is his position due to the need. I just see it differently and so does everyone who understands what the word value means.

 

[Lonewate44]

And again it's widely acknowledged that the Raiders overpaid for a guard. And this is a very real possibility, that Scherff needs to be moved to guard. Steve Hutchison was the best guard prospect in our lifetime and he went mid teens. IMO you don't use the 5th pick on a player that could very well end up as a guard. Shark and others disagree, even if he ends up at guard it was a good pick is his position due to the need. I just see it differently and so does everyone who understands what the word value means.

Well I understand what Value means...so .......Please dont infer that you can speak for me...becasue obviously you can't