How Andy Reid And Jeff Fisher Were Once Compared And How Both Finally Ended Up

[MIKE75]

Read the story below and you'll see ultimately how much a starting QB is really needed in the NFL.


At one point i think it was 2008 Andy Reid was the longest tenured NFC coach in Philly with the same club while Jeff Fisher was the longest tenured AFC coach in Tennessee. The knock on both coaches was they couldn't win the big one despite numerous playoff appearances for both.

Fisher after a couple years moving around from one city to another finally ended up in Nashville and in the year 1999 was his first coaching the new Tennessee Titans.

Reid had his first year of coaching the Philadelphia Eagles in 1999 as well.

By 2008 within ten years both coaches were not only the longest tenured but among the winningest and among the top ten for that ten year period.

Reid had Donovan McNabb as his starter while Fisher had Steve McNair as his.....

Reid was 97-62-1 with five division titles,seven playoff appearances and one lost Super Bowl while Fisher was 96-64 overall with three division titles,six playoff appearances and one lost Super Bowl.

Both Fisher and Reid had 8-8 finishes in their next to last seasons coaching in Philly and Tennessee.

Fisher finally left Tennessee after the 2010 season he went 6-10 while Reid finally left Philly after 2012 when he went 4-12.

When Fisher got a new coaching gig with the St Louis Rams he wanted his starter to be Sam Bradford but he was hurt too much and Fisher didn't have a viable replacement. In four seasons he has went 7-8-1, 7-9, 6-10 and 7-9.

I think his biggest mistake was not trying to find a good QB at all costs. Kellen Clemens,Shaun Hill,Austin Davis,Nick Foles and Case Keenum all tried but couldn't hold down the starting job.

Meanwhile Reid got a new coaching gig in K.C. with the Chiefs and he was able to bring in QB Alex Smith from the 49ers for some draft picks. In three years all with Smith at QB the Chiefs have went 11-5, 9-7 and 11-5.

Biggest difference in my opinion was Reid bringing in a good starter at QB.

Ever since Fisher lost McNair in 2006 he has routinely been ranked among the worst offensive and passing coached teams in the league.

Fisher seems to think a good defense and run game is sufficient but found out its really not.

Coaches like Fisher and Rex Ryan must learn that if they don't have a good enough QB they aren't going to win much more than 7 or 8 games a year.

 

[Clayton]

Fisher took on some awful contracts on the Rams, too, and I think that factors in. He wildly overrated Cortland Finnegan (top 3 CB money lol) and Jared Cook to fat contracts and neither earned them. The Bradford contract was the worst in football for awhile and Fisher jumped in willingly. The Foles contract was inexcusable and could've been negotiation at a later date. The Saffold contract is awful especially considering that the Raiders looked at him and turned him down physically. Chris Long and James Laurinaitis were bad contracts in the end, too, but not as bad as the others.

He is a bad coach kept on by a bad owner who only wants to see the value of his NFL team go up

 

[Broncos6482]

The difference between Andy Reid and Jeff Fisher is that Andy Reid is a good coach, and Jeff Fisher is not.

 

[cdumler7]

The difference between Andy Reid and Jeff Fisher is that Andy Reid is a good coach, and Jeff Fisher is not.

Reid to me falls into a big group of Coaches that while good just don't seem to make the decisions needed in the big games to win it all. I would put John Fox in that same category and probably Marvin Lewis. They can rack up a lot of wins and can get a lot out of the players they have but time and time again their decisions seem to cost their team at the worst possible moments.

 

[Broncos6482]

Reid to me falls into a big group of Coaches that while good just don't seem to make the decisions needed in the big games to win it all. I would put John Fox in that same category and probably Marvin Lewis. They can rack up a lot of wins and can get a lot out of the players they have but time and time again their decisions seem to cost their team at the worst possible moments.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Reid is a great x's and o's guy, and he's certainly one of the best in the NFL in between games. He's a great game planner and really does a good job of putting his players in position to succeed. His problem is he's a lousy game day coach. He gets in play calling ruts, he tends to ignore the running game, and he has serious clock management issues. It still amazes me that an NFL coach could be as bad at clock management as he is. I mean, a 12 year old who plays Madden could understand how best to use the clock better than he could.

Fox and Lewis I think are very similar. They're great rebuild guys, players love playing for them, and they can maximize talent on less talented teams. One of the best descriptions I ever heard about Fox was that he could make an average team good or make a great team good. I think that probably fits Lewis, too.

 

[cdumler7]

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Reid is a great x's and o's guy, and he's certainly one of the best in the NFL in between games. He's a great game planner and really does a good job of putting his players in position to succeed. His problem is he's a lousy game day coach. He gets in play calling ruts, he tends to ignore the running game, and he has serious clock management issues. It still amazes me that an NFL coach could be as bad at clock management as he is. I mean, a 12 year old who plays Madden could understand how best to use the clock better than he could.

Fox and Lewis I think are very similar. They're great rebuild guys, players love playing for them, and they can maximize talent on less talented teams. One of the best descriptions I ever heard about Fox was that he could make an average team good or make a great team good. I think that probably fits Lewis, too.

Good description. What you said about Reid in game is why I just don't think he is the guy that will win a Super Bowl unless things just really fall perfectly into place. The Playoffs are full of very good teams that have very little that separates them so those few in game decisions can really turn the game one way or the other. I mean that Patriots game was the perfect example of what we have seen from him over the years. What 4 minutes left needing 2 scores and instead of going hurry up you keep huddling and taking tons of time off the clock? Reid like Fox is the guy I want if my team finished bottom-5 in the league. Give him 4 years to build up a talented roster and then to me you move on as an organization. The problem is teams are fine holding onto a good coach instead of working to hopefully find a great coach. So Reid will probably be with the Chiefs another 5-7 years before they finally say enough is enough.

 

[Clayton]

Reid to me falls into a big group of Coaches that while good just don't seem to make the decisions needed in the big games to win it all.

A lot of the old school coaches struggle with clock management as far as I can tell. Certainly Jeff 'lets kick that 60+yd FG but then go for 2pts on the next possession for no reason' Fisher fits in that category

 

[Clayton]

Good description. What you said about Reid in game is why I just don't think he is the guy that will win a Super Bowl unless things just really fall perfectly into place. The Playoffs are full of very good teams that have very little that separates them so those few in game decisions can really turn the game one way or the other. I mean that Patriots game was the perfect example of what we have seen from him over the years. What 4 minutes left needing 2 scores and instead of going hurry up you keep huddling and taking tons of time off the clock? Reid like Fox is the guy I want if my team finished bottom-5 in the league. Give him 4 years to build up a talented roster and then to me you move on as an organization. The problem is teams are fine holding onto a good coach instead of working to hopefully find a great coach. So Reid will probably be with the Chiefs another 5-7 years before they finally say enough is enough.

I guess the follow up to this would be: how many times has Andy Reid lost to an inferior opponent in the playoffs?

With the Chiefs, he can lean on the injuries excuse twice although most would say that the Pats were legitimately better even if the Chiefs were playing full strength. Against the Colts 2 years earlier, the whole team practically got carted off the field.

With the Eagles, 2003 is the only year coming to mind when the Eagles lost to the ridiculously resilient Carolina Panthers that came pretty close to winning a Super Bowl.

 

[cdumler7]

I guess the follow up to this would be: how many times has Andy Reid lost to an inferior opponent in the playoffs?

With the Chiefs, he can lean on the injuries excuse twice although most would say that the Pats were legitimately better even if the Chiefs were playing full strength. Against the Colts 2 years earlier, the whole team practically got carted off the field.

With the Eagles, 2003 is the only year coming to mind when the Eagles lost to the ridiculously resilient Carolina Panthers that came pretty close to winning a Super Bowl.

That's the thing though of how long are you going to allow a coach to have every excuse in the book of why they lost in the playoffs? I mean when the Broncos played the Patriots in they playoffs earlier this year everybody was picking the Patriots to win that game but then the Broncos had an incredible game plan that they executed perfectly throughout the game. They timed blitzes and when they should drop 8 guys into coverage. They had Brady confused all day long. Then on the offense they saw that the linebackers struggled with double moves and were able to abuse that for 2 early touchdowns. To me that is where coaching in those big games really shows up. Reid has shown he sometimes shrinks in the biggest games and the biggest moments of those games. You can say it was injuries or whatever else but there is plenty of in game things happening that to me you can really question.

 

[Clayton]

That's the thing though of how long are you going to allow a coach to have every excuse in the book of why they lost in the playoffs? I mean when the Broncos played the Patriots in they playoffs earlier this year everybody was picking the Patriots to win that game but then the Broncos had an incredible game plan that they executed perfectly throughout the game. They timed blitzes and when they should drop 8 guys into coverage. They had Brady confused all day long. Then on the offense they saw that the linebackers struggled with double moves and were able to abuse that for 2 early touchdowns. To me that is where coaching in those big games really shows up. Reid has shown he sometimes shrinks in the biggest games and the biggest moments of those games. You can say it was injuries or whatever else but there is plenty of in game things happening that to me you can really question.

I get what you are saying with scheme but the players have to show up, too, and injuries matter a ton. I do think injuries are a decent reason why Denver got totally trashed against Seattle a couple of years ago and that was supposed to be the best two teams in the league. Injuries and turnovers matter a ton in playoffs and are often way too discounted.

 

[cdumler7]

I get what you are saying with scheme but the players have to show up, too, and injuries matter a ton. I do think injuries are a decent reason why Denver got totally trashed against Seattle a couple of years ago and that was supposed to be the best two teams in the league. Injuries and turnovers matter a ton in playoffs and are often way too discounted.

Again I get that but when we are talking an entire career of excuses of why he cannot get it done in the playoffs I would say he has to be a factor in the equation. Believe me we had Fox for a few years there and while our team could win a lot of games it was his decisions in some of the biggest games that really cost us quite often.

 

[Clayton]

Again I get that but when we are talking an entire career of excuses of why he cannot get it done in the playoffs I would say he has to be a factor in the equation. Believe me we had Fox for a few years there and while our team could win a lot of games it was his decisions in some of the biggest games that really cost us quite often.

Reid has a .500 record in the playoffs. He beat HOF Tony Dungy twice. Its not like he is Marty Schottenheimer. Its not like he is puking on the side of the field at the Super Bowl. He does have some bad clock management skills but I dont actually feel like thats cost him nearly as much as injuries over the years.

 

[Broncos6482]

I guess the follow up to this would be: how many times has Andy Reid lost to an inferior opponent in the playoffs?

With the Chiefs, he can lean on the injuries excuse twice although most would say that the Pats were legitimately better even if the Chiefs were playing full strength. Against the Colts 2 years earlier, the whole team practically got carted off the field.

With the Eagles, 2003 is the only year coming to mind when the Eagles lost to the ridiculously resilient Carolina Panthers that came pretty close to winning a Super Bowl.

2002, lost to Tampa Bay at home in the NFC Championship game.
2003, lost to Carolina at home in the NFC Championship game.
2008, lost to 9-7 Arizona in the NFC Championship game.
2009, lost to the Cowboys in the wild card round (both teams finished 11-5).
2010, lost at home to the Packers in the wild card round (both teams were 10-6).
2013, lost to the Colts (I don't care how many players get injured, there's no excuse for blowing a 28 point second half lead).

 

[cdumler7]

Reid has a .500 record in the playoffs. He beat HOF Tony Dungy twice. Its not like he is Marty Schottenheimer. Its not like he is puking on the side of the field at the Super Bowl. He does have some bad clock management skills but I dont actually feel like thats cost him nearly as much as injuries over the years.

It goes beyond clock management. I have seen him completely abandon the run game many times even though he has a Pro Bowl RB. Even though the game might only be one score. He panics early in games if he falls behind. He is a guy that needs everything to go good early otherwise he seems to compound his issues. I've also seen him struggle to adjust his game plan during the game if things are not going great. I know this wasn't his fault as the DC is the guy calling the defense but against the Patriots I saw very little change even though the Patriots just kept doing the same thing over and over. Honestly I think it was that game that helped the Broncos come up with their game plan of flooding those quick throw areas and forcing Brady to hold onto the ball longer than he wanted to.

 

[Broncos6482]

Good description. What you said about Reid in game is why I just don't think he is the guy that will win a Super Bowl unless things just really fall perfectly into place. The Playoffs are full of very good teams that have very little that separates them so those few in game decisions can really turn the game one way or the other. I mean that Patriots game was the perfect example of what we have seen from him over the years. What 4 minutes left needing 2 scores and instead of going hurry up you keep huddling and taking tons of time off the clock? Reid like Fox is the guy I want if my team finished bottom-5 in the league. Give him 4 years to build up a talented roster and then to me you move on as an organization. The problem is teams are fine holding onto a good coach instead of working to hopefully find a great coach. So Reid will probably be with the Chiefs another 5-7 years before they finally say enough is enough.

The worst part of that whole thing is that after the game the Chiefs coaches actually defended that decision. That tells me it wasn't a got caught up in the moment type of thing that they can learn from, they actually think that was the correct strategic decision to make. That is mind boggling to me and a serious red flag if I'm a Chiefs fan.

 

[Broncos6482]

It goes beyond clock management. I have seen him completely abandon the run game many times even though he has a Pro Bowl RB. Even though the game might only be one score. He panics early in games if he falls behind. He is a guy that needs everything to go good early otherwise he seems to compound his issues. I've also seen him struggle to adjust his game plan during the game if things are not going great. I know this wasn't his fault as the DC is the guy calling the defense but against the Patriots I saw very little change even though the Patriots just kept doing the same thing over and over. Honestly I think it was that game that helped the Broncos come up with their game plan of flooding those quick throw areas and forcing Brady to hold onto the ball longer than he wanted to.

While I mostly agree with you on Reid, to be fair with their injuries the Chiefs couldn't rush the passer like Denver could, and that would have made playing tight coverage an extremely risky proposition. Denver was able to do it because the pass rush kept getting home, but without a pass rush the Chiefs would have been exposed to the deep ball. It was essentially a choice between death by a stab to the heart, or death by a thousand cuts.

 

[cdumler7]

The worst part of that whole thing is that after the game the Chiefs coaches actually defended that decision. That tells me it wasn't a got caught up in the moment type of thing that they can learn from, they actually think that was the correct strategic decision to make. That is mind boggling to me and a serious red flag if I'm a Chiefs fan.

Didn't hear that but yeah if they think that was the right decision then honestly they should be fired on the spot. That loses you the game 100% of the time. When you are down 2 scores with 4 minutes left to go you have to start taking some chances and you have to start speeding things up. Beyond just trying to conserve time speeding things up puts a lot of pressure on a defense to not have time to always get set or get the players in that they want for a given situation. If you fail then you at least lose trying to win the game.

 

[Clayton]

2002, lost to Tampa Bay at home in the NFC Championship game.
2003, lost to Carolina at home in the NFC Championship game.
2008, lost to 9-7 Arizona in the NFC Championship game.
2009, lost to the Cowboys in the wild card round (both teams finished 11-5).
2010, lost at home to the Packers in the wild card round (both teams were 10-6).
2013, lost to the Colts (I don't care how many players get injured, there's no excuse for blowing a 28 point second half lead).

Lets see, I watched all of those games.

I agree with you on 2003. Eagles definitely should've won. 2008 was weird because Eagles had a chance to win it and there was a pass that could've been caught and wasn't.

2009 is a bit foggy but Dallas just looked better in every way IIRC. 2010 Aaron Rodgers and a great secondary won a Super Bowl. That was the better team no doubt.

That leaves 2013 which by all accounts the Chiefs should've won. Injuries REALLY mattered that game but thats really the only one you look at and say 'boy they really should've won that game'

2003, 2008 teams that beat Reid were a play away from winning a Super Bowl. 2010 did win a Super Bowl.

 

[cdumler7]

While I mostly agree with you on Reid, to be fair with their injuries the Chiefs couldn't rush the passer like Denver could, and that would have made playing tight coverage an extremely risky proposition. Denver was able to do it because the pass rush kept getting home, but without a pass rush the Chiefs would have been exposed to the deep ball. It was essentially a choice between death by a stab to the heart, or death by a thousand cuts.

I get that but I am talking about them trying to have a linebacker match up one-on-one with say Edelman going over the middle. That is an easy match up. What the Broncos did was they switched to a lot more zone coverage over the middle so that Brady would see a guy flooding that spot he wants to throw it too instead of a linebacker playing trail coverage. It at least forces brady to have to pull the ball down for a half a second more giving your pass rush maybe a chance to make a play. INstead all he has to do is get up to the LOS and see that linebacker across from Edelman and smile.

 

[Clayton]

I get that but I am talking about them trying to have a linebacker match up one-on-one with say Edelman going over the middle. That is an easy match up. What the Broncos did was they switched to a lot more zone coverage over the middle so that Brady would see a guy flooding that spot he wants to throw it too instead of a linebacker playing trail coverage. It at least forces brady to have to pull the ball down for a half a second more giving your pass rush maybe a chance to make a play. INstead all he has to do is get up to the LOS and see that linebacker across from Edelman and smile.

Chiefs had 3 or 4 really bad defensive calls against the Patriots IIRC. Smith lined up 1 on 1 against Gronk on the outside in a goalline set is inexcusable. Broncos having Von Miller really was the biggest factor in the whole playoffs, though. You remove him from the field on the Broncos end and small cracks would start to appear. Chiefs had quite a few cracks against the Pats but just as many issues on offense as defense. Chiefs had an B+ offense, A- defense and A- special teams and a lot of the other teams in the playoffs had A or A+ defenses.