HOF Ballot Released

[MilkSpiller22]

If you think Thome is better than Sosa, then why would you have to have both in? What if your line of what is and what isn't a HOFer is slightly below Thome and ahead of Sosa? Is that not logical?

call me a strawman all you want... but sosa is in for the 600+ HRs... The reason I keep on bringing up Thome and Bonds for Sosa is because by voting for bonds, then you are now saying Steroids is allowed, and by putting in Thome you are saying his 600+ HRs is still a milestone... Sure Thome is more than just the HRs... But he is mostly a power hitter...

If you have both in, then sosa is the next logical vote... at least over the likes of McGriff, which was my original statement here, that it would have been more consistent to have Sosa in than McGriff...

 

[navamind]

didn't say he wasn't... But IMO, if you have Thome and Bonds you must have sosa... especially if you are going to give a spot to McGriff...

no you don't. That's the kind of faulty logic that leads to questionable HOF inductions. Sosa's more deserving than McGriff, but I don't think McGriff is remotely close to being a HOFer.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sosa also has the cork, though.

And I try not to get too upset with someone’s ballot just because I don’t agree with it. There has to be room for disagreement.

But splitting your vote for Bonds and Clemens simply cannot be defended. Either you vote for both, or you keep both out. Any deviation from that is hypocrisy.

 

[soxfan1468927]

call me a strawman all you want... but sosa is in for the 600+ HRs... The reason I keep on bringing up Thome and Bonds for Sosa is because by voting for bonds, then you are now saying Steroids is allowed, and by putting in Thome you are saying his 600+ HRs is still a milestone... Sure Thome is more than just the HRs... But he is mostly a power hitter...

If you have both in, then sosa is the next logical vote... at least over the likes of McGriff, which was my original statement here, that it would have been more consistent to have Sosa in than McGriff...

Yes I will call that a strawman. I would vote for Thome but not because of an arbitrary milestone of 600 HRs. So your logic doesn't apply to everyone that would vote for Thome.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes I will call that a strawman. I would vote for Thome but not because of an arbitrary milestone of 600 HRs. So your logic doesn't apply to everyone that would vote for Thome.

Interesting comparing Sosa and Thome...

Sosa had 3 of the top 10 HR seasons of all time, sure steroids, but he wasn't the only steroid user, and the era was known to be a steroid era...

Thome's best HR season was tied for 28th in baseball history

Sosa had 2 top 25 RBI seasons of all time
Thome's best season is tied for 194th

Thome was top 5 in MVP voting once, top 10 4 times. never top 3.
Sosa won an MVP title, was top 3 and top 5 twice, top 10 6 times.

Thome is a 5 time AS
Sosa is a 7 time AS

sosa had 3 seasons of .300 BA(500+ PA) .320+ twice
Thome also had 3(500+ PA) . Never reached .320

so basically, the only place Thome was better than Sosa was BB, and yes Thome was significantly better having 9 seasons with OBP over .400 compared to sosa only having 2 seasons...

Point is if you have Thome as a top 5 candidate, how is Sosa not a top 10 candidate?? his peaks are higher in the most important offensive categories... neither player was great in the playoffs, so playoffs is not a factor...

oh, and if you want to go OPS+, oWAR, and any other advanced stat, Sosa had the better BEST year... and is comparable at their best seasons...

 

[navamind]

Sosa had the better best year, but Thome blows him out looking at the rest of their careers.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Interesting comparing Sosa and Thome...

Sosa had 3 of the top 10 HR seasons of all time, sure steroids, but he wasn't the only steroid user, and the era was known to be a steroid era...

Thome's best HR season was tied for 28th in baseball history

Sosa had 2 top 25 RBI seasons of all time
Thome's best season is tied for 194th

Thome was top 5 in MVP voting once, top 10 4 times. never top 3.
Sosa won an MVP title, was top 3 and top 5 twice, top 10 6 times.

Thome is a 5 time AS
Sosa is a 7 time AS

sosa had 3 seasons of .300 BA(500+ PA) .320+ twice
Thome also had 3(500+ PA) . Never reached .320

so basically, the only place Thome was better than Sosa was BB, and yes Thome was significantly better having 9 seasons with OBP over .400 compared to sosa only having 2 seasons...

Point is if you have Thome as a top 5 candidate, how is Sosa not a top 10 candidate?? his peaks are higher in the most important offensive categories... neither player was great in the playoffs, so playoffs is not a factor...

oh, and if you want to go OPS+, oWAR, and any other advanced stat, Sosa had the better BEST year... and is comparable at their best seasons...

Okay so you've moved the goal posts. You are now arguing Sosa vs Thome. Which is a perfectly fine argument. Arguing that Thome getting in means Sosa has to get in, even if you think Thome was better, is what doesn't make sense.

I agree that Sosa had the better "best" seasons. You just pointed that out 5 different ways with the HR/RBI/MVP/All-Star numbers.

I don't think Thome was better than Sosa at just walks. He has the higher career batting average even with having fewer seasons hitting over .320. He has the higher career slugging percentage. He has the higher career OPS.

Sosa may have had the better peak, but he only had 6 full seasons with an OPS over .900. Thome had 12. Sosa had 5 seasons with an OPS+ over 150. Thome had 9.

Who said Thome was a top 5 candidate? What if I have Thome as the 8th or 9th best candidate for HOF this year, while Sosa would be outside my top 10?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Sosa had the better best year, but Thome blows him out looking at the rest of their careers.

that's just not true at all... you really just sound like a sosa hater...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Okay so you've moved the goal posts. You are now arguing Sosa vs Thome. Which is a perfectly fine argument. Arguing that Thome getting in means Sosa has to get in, even if you think Thome was better, is what doesn't make sense.

I agree that Sosa had the better "best" seasons. You just pointed that out 5 different ways with the HR/RBI/MVP/All-Star numbers.

I don't think Thome was better than Sosa at just walks. He has the higher career batting average even with having fewer seasons hitting over .320. He has the higher career slugging percentage. He has the higher career OPS.

Sosa may have had the better peak, but he only had 6 full seasons with an OPS over .900. Thome had 12. Sosa had 5 seasons with an OPS+ over 150. Thome had 9.

Who said Thome was a top 5 candidate? What if I have Thome as the 8th or 9th best candidate for HOF this year, while Sosa would be outside my top 10?

Thome's career BA was .276 in 8422 AB, Sosa's was .273 in 8813 AB... I would consider that pretty much a wash...

I agree with you that if Thome is on the bottom of your list then a lesser player doesn't have to be on the list... But listening to the consensus here it sounds like people have Thome as a shoe in... which made me wonder why Sosa is absolutely ignored...

again, my whole point is if you put Bonds on your list then you have no issue of steroids, and I see Thome and Sosa to be very close... sure Thome is better due to the crazy amount of walks and his consistency of getting one... But that is the ONLY thing Thome was better than sosa in... Sosa arguably had the better peak...

 

[PEOPLESCHICKEN]

My ballot would be: Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Jones, Martinez, Mussina, Ramirez, Thome, Walker

Thats a lot of asterisks on your ballot

 

[soxfan1468927]

Thome's career BA was .276 in 8422 AB, Sosa's was .273 in 8813 AB... I would consider that pretty much a wash...

I agree with you that if Thome is on the bottom of your list then a lesser player doesn't have to be on the list... But listening to the consensus here it sounds like people have Thome as a shoe in... which made me wonder why Sosa is absolutely ignored...

again, my whole point is if you put Bonds on your list then you have no issue of steroids, and I see Thome and Sosa to be very close... sure Thome is better due to the crazy amount of walks and his consistency of getting one... But that is the ONLY thing Thome was better than sosa in... Sosa arguably had the better peak...

There's also a 20 point difference in slugging percentage.

Is Thome being a shoe-in just the sense you're getting? Has anyone here ranked their candidates 1-10 and had Thome top 5 but Sosa off the list?

This started as a response to a ballot we saw that had Thome in and Sosa out. You agree that this isn't crazy because you agree that Thome is better. So why argue it?

 

[PEOPLESCHICKEN]

Definitely...

Bonds
Clemens
Chipper

Maybe...

Hoffman
Vlad
Rolen
Thome
Kent
Sosa
Andruw
Omar

Almost certainly no, but with room for argument...

Walker
Schilling
Mussina
Wagner
Chef
Manny

Bonds, Clemens are definitely's?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Thome's career BA was .276 in 8422 AB, Sosa's was .273 in 8813 AB... I would consider that pretty much a wash...

At the same time, Thome had a near 80 point lead in OPS....just to put that into perspective, that's about the same gap that Albert Pujols and Mark Teixeira have in career OPS (pretty significant).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

There's also a 20 point difference in slugging percentage.

Is Thome being a shoe-in just the sense you're getting? Has anyone here ranked their candidates 1-10 and had Thome top 5 but Sosa off the list?

This started as a response to a ballot we saw that had Thome in and Sosa out. You agree that this isn't crazy because you agree that Thome is better. So why argue it?

no, this started because McGriff was in instead of Sosa, when they had Thome and Bonds... I just commented on the consistency issue...

which there is also a big one when you have Omar Vizquel in without Andruw Jones...

you are right, I haven't seen anyone rank top 10... just hearing people around here and seeing real ballots, it seems like the majority have Thome in... I am just wondering why it seems like Thome is a shoe in while Sosa is being ignored... especially when people are voting bonds(which I only mention to show that voters ARE voting for tainted players)...

I will also agree if you are leaving out steroid guys, then of course Sosa wont be on your list while Thome MIGHT...

I am really only focusing on those who vote for BOTH Bonds and Thome...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

At the same time, Thome had a near 80 point lead in OPS....just to put that into perspective, that's about the same gap that Albert Pujols and Mark Teixeira have in career OPS (pretty significant).

OPS over exaggerates walks though. And I have said from the beginning that Thome was significantly better in walks.

 

[soxfan1468927]

no, this started because McGriff was in instead of Sosa, when they had Thome and Bonds... I just commented on the consistency issue...

which there is also a big one when you have Omar Vizquel in without Andruw Jones...

you are right, I haven't seen anyone rank top 10... just hearing people around here and seeing real ballots, it seems like the majority have Thome in... I am just wondering why it seems like Thome is a shoe in while Sosa is being ignored... especially when people are voting bonds(which I only mention to show that voters ARE voting for tainted players)...

I will also agree if you are leaving out steroid guys, then of course Sosa wont be on your list while Thome MIGHT...

I am really only focusing on those who vote for BOTH Bonds and Thome...

Well ignore steroids for a second and I think you would agree that Bonds and Thome were both better than Sosa. So there ya go, that's why you would vote for Bonds and Thome, while not voting Sosa.

McGriff/Bonds in while Sosa is not is, I think, a better argument against consistency.

Completely agree on the Vizquel/Andruw Jones argument. Seems that shortstop defense is elevated much higher than any other position. I'm fully on the Andruw Jones for the Hall bandwagon while I'm firmly against Vizquel.

 

[soxfan1468927]

OPS over exaggerates walks though. And I have said from the beginning that Thome was significantly better in walks.

But Thome was better at both aspects of OPS, not just OBP.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Well ignore steroids for a second and I think you would agree that Bonds and Thome were both better than Sosa. So there ya go, that's why you would vote for Bonds and Thome, while not voting Sosa.

McGriff/Bonds in while Sosa is not is, I think, a better argument against consistency.

Completely agree on the Vizquel/Andruw Jones argument. Seems that shortstop defense is elevated much higher than any other position. I'm fully on the Andruw Jones for the Hall bandwagon while I'm firmly against Vizquel.

I have no issue calling thome better than Sosa... but I do see it to be very close...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I have no issue calling thome better than Sosa... but I do see it to be very close...

The difference is large enough for me to confidently say that one is a HOFer and one is not.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The difference is large enough for me to confidently say that one is a HOFer and one is not.

I don't see it... especially when looking at best seasons... not just best season...

Sosa had 4 seasons of over 500 PA with over a .600 SLG, one over .700
THome had 3 seasons of over 500 PA with over a .600 SLG. never over .700


so in HR, SLG, BA, RBI Sosa was better at his best and had MORE ELITE seasons...

Sosa had MORE top 5 MVP rankings, MORE AS, actually WON an MVP...


I see the ONLY thing Thome to be outright better than sosa in was walks...


IMO, Sosa had the better peak, but Thome had the better longevity and was better in his worse seasons...

again, I would agree Thome over Sosa... But I do think if Thome is a HOFer, I just don't see an argument against Sosa, once you allow the taint in... Maybe not in the same year if you cant fit him, but he has to make it someday...

I think peak is just as important if not more important that whole career... and I feel like sosa is getting too much hate...