HALL OF FAME '17

[soxfan1468927]

see, I dont like giving the HOF to the player who lasted long, when their 162 game averages are not really close to HOF worthy...

It's like he's Jamie Moyer. You cut it off at top 5 in your comparison, but he finished top 6 in Cy Young voting 9 times.

 

[soxfan1468927]

your probably right... But I consider those numbers more to be why he is a first balloter... I will never consider Beltre a good HOF offensive bat...

Agreed. He's closer to Nettles offensively than Chipper for example.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It's like he's Jamie Moyer. You cut it off at top 5 in your comparison, but he finished top 6 in Cy Young voting 9 times.

I think he is borderline... I would put schilling in before mussina too... And I hate Schilling... its weird when you are the one person who opposes the player you actually like...

 

[rmilia1]

I get the reason people protest and don't vote for Bonds or Clemens but the reality is Barry Bonds is one of the 3 best hitters in the history of MLB. If he's not getting in then no one, no one, from his era should because we simply don't know who cheated. It's that simple. The guy is by so far the best player I've ever seen that it's amazing to me this is even a debate.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I think he is borderline... I would put schilling in before mussina too... And I hate Schilling... its weird when you are the one person who opposes the player you actually like...

I'd put both in. And I have no personal feelings towards either. I think both get overshadowed because they played in the same era as 4 of the top 10 pitchers ever.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'd put both in. And I have no personal feelings towards either. I think both get overshadowed because they played in the same era as 4 of the top 10 pitchers ever.

I have schilling in, but not mussina... Schilling IMO makes it just for his playoff numbers... 19 games with a 2.23 ERA and 7 WS games with a 2.06 ERA... that is HOF worthy...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I have schilling in, but not mussina... Schilling IMO makes it just for his playoff numbers... 19 games with a 2.23 ERA and 7 WS games with a 2.06 ERA... that is HOF worthy...

He's also one of only 7 pitchers to have 3000 IP, 3000 Ks, and a 127 ERA+ or higher. Randy Johnson, Walter Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Seaver, and Gibson being the others.

I find it interesting you won't put Mussina in, but you'll vote Schilling and Santana. I can respect being pro-peak, but I don't think it has to be one or the other. Mussina was top 8 in ERA in 11 seasons. I'm of the belief that sustained very good, makes you great.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He's also one of only 7 pitchers to have 3000 IP, 3000 Ks, and a 127 ERA+ or higher. Randy Johnson, Walter Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Seaver, and Gibson being the others.

I find it interesting you won't put Mussina in, but you'll vote Schilling and Santana. I can respect being pro-peak, but I don't think it has to be one or the other. Mussina was top 8 in ERA in 11 seasons. I'm of the belief that sustained very good, makes you great.

didn't say I would vote Santana in... said I am on the fence with him... and that I have him ahead of Mussina...

I consider there to be 2 different HOFers... the all time greats and the compilers... A compiler HAS to reach some sort of milestone... If he doesn't, then he better be an all time great... Mussina was never the best of his era, and rarely even top 5... and he didn't reach any milestone Number, he is below 300 wins, below 3000 SOs, career WHIP is well above 1.1, and his career ERA is well above 3.00... So he just doesn't check enough of my boxes to make the HOF...


Santana at least was great during his prime...

 

[soxfan1468927]

If I had a vote for the BBWAA and everyone I voted for got in, my votes over the next few years would be:

2018
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina
Edgar Martinez
Manny Ramirez
Chipper Jones
Andruw Jones
Larry Walker
Jim Thome

2019
Roy Halladay
Mariano Rivera
Scott Rolen
Vladimir Guerrero

2020
Derek Jeter

2021
Blank ballot

 

[soxfan1468927]

didn't say I would vote Santana in... said I am on the fence with him... and that I have him ahead of Mussina...

I consider there to be 2 different HOFers... the all time greats and the compilers... A compiler HAS to reach some sort of milestone... If he doesn't, then he better be an all time great... Mussina was never the best of his era, and rarely even top 5... and he didn't reach any milestone Number, he is below 300 wins, below 3000 SOs, career WHIP is well above 1.1, and his career ERA is well above 3.00... So he just doesn't check enough of my boxes to make the HOF...


Santana at least was great during his prime...

Yeah I'm not a big milestone guy. I understand being one, as it's the HOF and milestones are big moments.

I'm curious, would you vote for Ortiz?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah I'm not a big milestone guy. I understand being one, as it's the HOF and milestones are big moments.

I'm curious, would you vote for Ortiz?

This is where you may call me a hipocrite. And I am fine with that. But I always thought that the HR milestone should have increased with the times. So i don't consider Ortiz reaching any milestone.

I would have moved the HR milestone to 600. I like to do 15 years times 40 hr= 600.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But Ortiz is also on my fence... I do penalize him for playing less than 300 games as a fielder... and might penalize him too much...

 

[soxfan1468927]

This is where you may call me a hipocrite. And I am fine with that. But I always thought that the HR milestone should have increased with the times. So i don't consider Ortiz reaching any milestone.

I would have moved the HR milestone to 600. I like to do 15 years times 40 hr= 600.

There are only 8 guys all time with 600. Seems high. Still only 27 guys have hit 500 HRs, still comparable to the 24 who have 300 wins.

And if the milestones are flexible, do you think the wins milestone should decrease with the times? Out of the 24 pitchers with 300 wins, only 4 of them started their career in the last 50 years.

 

[soxfan1468927]

But Ortiz is also on my fence... I do penalize him for playing less than 300 games as a fielder... and might penalize him too much...

Actually he's on the fence for me too, I have a hard time separating my fandom for him. I can't tell if I would vote for him if he wasn't on the Red Sox. His postseason resume, I think, will put him over the edge. Having a 1.200+ OPS in 3 different World Series winning playoff runs is pretty remarkable.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If I had a vote for the BBWAA and everyone I voted for got in, my votes over the next few years would be:

2018
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina
Edgar Martinez
Manny Ramirez
Chipper Jones
Andruw Jones
Larry Walker
Jim Thome

2019
Roy Halladay
Mariano Rivera
Scott Rolen
Vladimir Guerrero

2020
Derek Jeter

2021
Blank ballot

There are only 8 guys all time with 600. Seems high. Still only 27 guys have hit 500 HRs, still comparable to the 24 who have 300 wins.

And if the milestones are flexible, do you think the wins milestone should decrease with the times? Out of the 24 pitchers with 300 wins, only 4 of them started their career in the last 50 years.

No it shouldn't change because 20 wins is done pretty regularly... My rule is 15 years times the stat you want...

Wins 15 *20=300
SO- 15 *200=3000
Hits= 15 *200=3000
RBIs= 15 *120= 1800
SB= 15 *50= 750
and so on...

Milestone number should not be easy to reach...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Actually he's on the fence for me too, I have a hard time separating my fandom for him. I can't tell if I would vote for him if he wasn't on the Red Sox. His postseason resume, I think, will put him over the edge. Having a 1.200+ OPS in 3 different World Series winning playoff runs is pretty remarkable.

I think I am unfair with DH though, because most players make the HOF from their offensive numbers and not whether they are good defensively or not... But I still think A DH, since he plays only half the game has to be measured differently...

And David Ortiz has rarely been a top 5 offensive bat in his career...

 

[soxfan1468927]

No it shouldn't change because 20 wins is done pretty regularly... My rule is 15 years times the stat you want...

Wins 15 *20=300
SO- 15 *200=3000
Hits= 15 *200=3000
RBIs= 15 *120= 1800
SB= 15 *50= 750
and so on...

Milestone number should not be easy to reach...

But isn't the perception of the milestone, and the accolades that go with it, the reason that they are important to a Hall of Fame? 500 HRs is the biggest milestone, even more celebrated than 600 really. 500 HRs isn't easy, just like 250 wins isn't easy or 600 stolen bases.

I guess I'm wondering why do you put weight into milestones in the first place?

 

[soxfan1468927]

I think I am unfair with DH though, because most players make the HOF from their offensive numbers and not whether they are good defensively or not... But I still think A DH, since he plays only half the game has to be measured differently...

And David Ortiz has rarely been a top 5 offensive bat in his career...

I'll be back tomorrow to discuss more. Leaving the office now and usually don't post from home.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But isn't the perception of the milestone, and the accolades that go with it, the reason that they are important to a Hall of Fame? 500 HRs is the biggest milestone, even more celebrated than 600 really. 500 HRs isn't easy, just like 250 wins isn't easy or 600 stolen bases.

I guess I'm wondering why do you put weight into milestones in the first place?

before someone says anything my SB milestone is a little too low... Cant have vince coleman making the HOF...LOL


But a milestone should reflect the times though, shouldn't it??

 

[Droopdog51]

2 needles and a bindle.

If Bags and Pudge got in then it's just a matter of time for the other road guys. Everyone with common sense knows those guys juiced. I just wish it wasn't such a popularity contest but it is what it is

Show me any proof Bagwell juiced?

No failed test or mention in the Mitchell Report. Where is any real proof. Not just he was muscular or speculation.