Edgar H.O.F Thread

[dude82]

Not a bad week for Edgar Martinez who picks up HOF votes and a Congressional Resolution

as of noon Friday, Martinez is at 86.4 percent with 21.2 percent of all known ballots in.

While there are still somewhere in the neighborhood of 328 ballots that have yet to be turned in and excitement levels may be tempered by the drop in numbers Edgar took when the final ballots came in last year, the numbers so far this year are very different. At the 90 vote mark last year Edgar had been named on 67 percent of the ballots and topped out at around 71 percent at the 150 ballot mark before finishing at 58.6 percent.

I think he has a really good shot at it this time around and if he falls short again, I don't think it'll be by too much. Besides, the BBWAA vote isn't the only way to get in, so if he somehow doesn't get voted in in the next two years, I'm confident he'll make it anyway.

 

[navamind]

things look really good for Edgar even if he falls just short this year. I'd be shocked if he doesn't make it the next two years. Glad to see him getting a lot of support, he was one of my favorite players.

 

[NWinAZ]

 

[wazzu31]

It is utterly pathetic that Rivera and Ortiz are going to be first ballot yet people have to politic for the greatest hitter of the 90's to make it.

 

[StanMarsh51]

It is utterly pathetic that Rivera and Ortiz are going to be first ballot yet people have to politic for the greatest hitter of the 90's to make it.

Frank Thomas is already in....

 

[wazzu31]

Frank Thomas is already in....

Frank Thomas doesn't sniff Edgar's jock strap.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Frank Thomas doesn't sniff Edgar's jock strap.

'90s numbers:

Thomas - .320 AVG, .440 OBP, .573 SLG, 169 OPS+, 968 R, 301 HR, 1040 RBI, 1076 BB
Edgar --- .322 AVG, .430 OBP, .532 SLG, 154 OPS+, 854 R, 196 HR, 750 RBI, 854 BB



Nothing homerish there - those 2 points in batting average lead for Edgar clearly makes him better

 

[MilkSpiller22]

'90s numbers:

Thomas - .320 AVG, .440 OBP, .573 SLG, 169 OPS+, 968 R, 301 HR, 1040 RBI, 1076 BB
Edgar --- .322 AVG, .430 OBP, .532 SLG, 154 OPS+, 854 R, 196 HR, 750 RBI, 854 BB



Nothing homerish there - those 2 points in batting average lead for Edgar clearly makes him better

he wasn't even the best hitter for the mariners in the 90s...

that's kind of why I am against his HOF... A DH to make the HOF should be at LEAST a top 5 batter of his era... He was not...

Biggest problem with the steroid era is how it exaggerated everyone's stats... a .310 hitter in that era is not the same as a .310 hitter in another era...

 

[SeattleCoug]

'90s numbers:

Thomas - .320 AVG, .440 OBP, .573 SLG, 169 OPS+, 968 R, 301 HR, 1040 RBI, 1076 BB
Edgar --- .322 AVG, .430 OBP, .532 SLG, 154 OPS+, 854 R, 196 HR, 750 RBI, 854 BB



Nothing homerish there - those 2 points in batting average lead for Edgar clearly makes him better

I remember both pretty well and both are deserving in my mind. Frank probably does have the edge even if you include career WAR and WRC+. I also don't have an issue with Frank being a first balloter, I just think Edgar deserves to be in there. No not first ballot but eventually

 

[SeattleCoug]

he wasn't even the best hitter for the mariners in the 90s...

that's kind of why I am against his HOF... A DH to make the HOF should be at LEAST a top 5 batter of his era... He was not...

Biggest problem with the steroid era is how it exaggerated everyone's stats... a .310 hitter in that era is not the same as a .310 hitter in another era...

We will see. We know Ortiz is getting in first ballot and I wouldn't consider him a top 5 hitter of his era. Edgar's numbers compare favorably to Ortiz's outside of HR'S and RBI's.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

We will see. We know Ortiz is getting in first ballot and I wouldn't consider him a top 5 hitter of his era. Edgar's numbers compare favorably to Ortiz's outside of HR'S and RBI's.

I wouldn't either, but there is a big difference between Ortiz and Edgar... and that is the playoffs... Ortiz won 3 WS with the Red Sox, and helped break the curse

this is why I am shocked Curt Schilling is not in yet, as he is one of the best post season pitchers of all time...

 

[NWinAZ]

I wouldn't either, but there is a big difference between Ortiz and Edgar... and that is the playoffs... Ortiz won 3 WS with the Red Sox, and helped break the curse

this is why I am shocked Curt Schilling is not in yet, as he is one of the best post season pitchers of all time...

But playoffs have more to do with the team than the individual. Griffey didn't win a WS or even play in one, but he is still a HOF'er. Can it add to your credentials? Yes, but it shouldn't subtract from them.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I wouldn't either, but there is a big difference between Ortiz and Edgar... and that is the playoffs... Ortiz won 3 WS with the Red Sox, and helped break the curse

this is why I am shocked Curt Schilling is not in yet, as he is one of the best post season pitchers of all time...

Adding on to what AZ said. Edgar did have some big postseason moments in what few chances he had. Most know about what he did in Game 4/5 of the 1995 ALDS. He also hit an extra inning homer in the 2000 ALDS which helped ignite a sweep of the White Sox. Also had a 9th inning homer in the 9th inning Game 4 of the 2001 ALDS which helped push that too a game 5 which they eventually won. Sure none of those compare to what Ortiz did in the postseason.

Again I’ll say I don’t have an issue with Ortiz getting in, even on the first ballot. I’m just saying to consider him a no brainer and Edgar on the outside looking in seems wrong.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But playoffs have more to do with the team than the individual. Griffey didn't win a WS or even play in one, but he is still a HOF'er. Can it add to your credentials? Yes, but it shouldn't subtract from them.

Adding on to what AZ said. Edgar did have some big postseason moments in what few chances he had. Most know about what he did in Game 4/5 of the 1995 ALDS. He also hit an extra inning homer in the 2000 ALDS which helped ignite a sweep of the White Sox. Also had a 9th inning homer in the 9th inning Game 4 of the 2001 ALDS which helped push that too a game 5 which they eventually won. Sure none of those compare to what Ortiz did in the postseason.

Again I’ll say I don’t have an issue with Ortiz getting in, even on the first ballot. I’m just saying to consider him a no brainer and Edgar on the outside looking in seems wrong.

Never said it was a negative.

I will be honest, I didn't have David Ortiz in the HOF. Then when I thought about it harder I put him in because of his postseason. I wouldn't have wanted him in if he never won a WS as I have different measurements for DHs than I do for positional players.

The thing about Edgar is that he was consistently very good but he didn't really have enough elite seasons. He very rarely had top 10 seasons in any major offensive statistic. His era of play over exaggerates his stats. Even if he was clean(which we are not debating).

 

[wazzu31]

'90s numbers:

Thomas - .320 AVG, .440 OBP, .573 SLG, 169 OPS+, 968 R, 301 HR, 1040 RBI, 1076 BB
Edgar --- .322 AVG, .430 OBP, .532 SLG, 154 OPS+, 854 R, 196 HR, 750 RBI, 854 BB



Nothing homerish there - those 2 points in batting average lead for Edgar clearly makes him better

The only reason Frank Thomas ended up with Hall of Fame numbers is because of Edgar Martinez. Edgar's numbers won't ever matchup to the "greats" because of his injuries and lack of any legitimate protection. Frank Thomas has numbers of a healthy freak, Edgar had two bum knees and hit using one eye. Again, Frank Thomas doesn't sniff Edgar's jock.

 

[wazzu31]

But playoffs have more to do with the team than the individual. Griffey didn't win a WS or even play in one, but he is still a HOF'er. Can it add to your credentials? Yes, but it shouldn't subtract from them.

Damn, guess the best hitter in MLB history in Ted Williams should be kicked out of the HOF. Ortiz getting in on the first ballot will be more of a joke than Bonds not being in. Juicing if you are nice is ok and hall worthy, but juicing and an asshole means no go?

 

[StanMarsh51]

The only reason Frank Thomas ended up with Hall of Fame numbers is because of Edgar Martinez. Edgar's numbers won't ever matchup to the "greats" because of his injuries and lack of any legitimate protection. Frank Thomas has numbers of a healthy freak, Edgar had two bum knees and hit using one eye. Again, Frank Thomas doesn't sniff Edgar's jock.

You're being incredibly homerish and blind here...

You say he was the greatest hitter of the '90s, and when the stats show that Thomas was better, you start bringing up the excuses such as Edgar's knees and protection, etc. Hypotheticals don't exist - fact is, Edgar's numbers weren't nearly as good, which isn't debatable.


And your protection argument is ridiculous, because look at the lineups Thomas was in...other than Albert Belle for 1 season, what protection did Thomas have in the '90s? He didn't have a Griffey, A-Rod or Buhner. In fact, if Edgar's protection was so much worse, why was he only intentionally walked 40x in the 1990s wheras Thomas was intentionally walked 133x...that doesn't help your argument.

Yea, Thomas' protection was so much better that pitchers decided to intentionally walk him more 3x as much as Edgar in the '90s.

 

[wazzu31]

You're being incredibly homerish and blind here...

You say he was the greatest hitter of the '90s, and when the stats show that Thomas was better, you start bringing up the excuses such as Edgar's knees and protection, etc. Hypotheticals don't exist - fact is, Edgar's numbers weren't nearly as good, which isn't debatable.


And your protection argument is ridiculous, because look at the lineups Thomas was in...other than Albert Belle for 1 season, what protection did Thomas have in the '90s? He didn't have a Griffey, A-Rod or Buhner. In fact, if Edgar's protection was so much worse, why was he only intentionally walked 40x in the 1990s wheras Thomas was intentionally walked 133x...that doesn't help your argument.

Yea, Thomas' protection was so much better that pitchers decided to intentionally walk him more 3x as much as Edgar in the '90s.

It's actually a really fair argument. Without Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas doesn't make the hall of fame, there is no debating it. Paul Moliter and Frank Thomas do not have busts had Edgar broken the barrier where owners would pay guys to DH.

My protection argument wasnt, who was protecting Edgar, it's was who he was protecting and make them have career years. Intentional walks isn't a legit argument for how good of a hitter someone is. Outside of Barry Bonds, there hasn't ever been a hitter where pitchers walk with runners on. Edgar had zero issue grounding out to 2nd to advance a runner and sacrifice a hit and his numbers. Hell Edgar should never had ended up with as many hits as he did as he wanted to hang it up after 02 when he couldn't run at all but he decided to come back during the transition phase of the organization.

No one can debate Thomas had much more power. But Frank Thomas would've ended up a car salesman by 30 if he had to deal with half of what Edgar did.

 

[NWinAZ]

I have been following the debate on this which is interesting. Today I ran across an article ranking the top 25 hitters of the 90's.

Here it is if interested.

MLB's 100 Greatest Everyday Players of the 1990s: Nos. 25-1

 

[StanMarsh51]

It's actually a really fair argument. Without Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas doesn't make the hall of fame, there is no debating it. Paul Moliter and Frank Thomas do not have busts had Edgar broken the barrier where owners would pay guys to DH.

My protection argument wasnt, who was protecting Edgar, it's was who he was protecting and make them have career years. Intentional walks isn't a legit argument for how good of a hitter someone is. Outside of Barry Bonds, there hasn't ever been a hitter where pitchers walk with runners on. Edgar had zero issue grounding out to 2nd to advance a runner and sacrifice a hit and his numbers. Hell Edgar should never had ended up with as many hits as he did as he wanted to hang it up after 02 when he couldn't run at all but he decided to come back during the transition phase of the organization.

No one can debate Thomas had much more power. But Frank Thomas would've ended up a car salesman by 30 if he had to deal with half of what Edgar did.

Again, you're making excuses about what Edgar "had to deal with" and not looking at what their actual performance was.

Performance wise, Thomas was better and there's no question. If you post a poll asking that on the MLB general board, Edgar won't win that poll because it won't be groupthink by Mariner fans.

I do think Edgar is a HOFer, but to say he was the greatest hitter of the '90s is homerish when your method is to dismiss stats and add excuses to the mix. Your argument for Edgar being better is based on 'would've, could've' claims.

And it's not like Thomas only has more power...in the '90s, his OBP was 20 points higher.

Your argument for Edgar > Thomas is like saying Mickey Mantle is the best player ever because the other guys didn't have to deal with his knee problems and he couldn't done much more if he didn't have them. Based on hypotheticals without regard to actual performance.