Edgar H.O.F Thread

[NWinAZ]

I found it. It's by Jay Jaffe, who I had never heard of before. I don't read SI much, though.

JAWS: Edgar Martinez deserves HOF honors

I went a head and read the article. I wish I had read it first. It would have saved me a lot of time researching some stats...lol. He nailed it for me. I think guys like Puckett, Yount, and Molitor are three guys Martinez should rank ahead of. And after looking up the WAR stats, he also ended up higher in my eyes than Gwynn.

Oh well, it is all screwy anyways. I mean why isn't Rose in there? Different I know, but MLB allows drug addicts to continue in league. It allows alcohol addicts to continue in league. Rose is a gambler and gambling is also an addiction.

 

[unlvmariners]

I don't even want to think about this... just makes me angry....
But good points made by you guys.

 

[NWinAZ]

 

[wazzu31]

All I know is that MLB hall of fame voters should lose their right to vote if Mariano Rivera gets in before Edgar does.

 

[dude82]

Unfortunately, Edgar only has three more years of eligibility left now that they've shortened the length of eligibility from 15 years to 10 years. After that, it's up to the Veteran's Committee. I think he definitely gets in that way if the BBWAA don't pull their heads out of their asses and vote him in first.

 

[Mariners_44]

I got nothing against Ortiz but considering him a shoe in when Edgar can't get in is a joke.

This has been on my mind since Ortiz announced this would be his last year. Considering that he played in a market like Boston, how does he not get in? With that being said, Gar is even more deserving than Ortiz. That's how good he was, the HOF is a joke.

 

[seattlefan75]

I am going to play devils advocate with this and I am sure all you guys are gonna gang up on me but before you all do im gonna say that Edgar is my all time favorite mariner, infact he is my all time favorite seattle sports athlete I feel that there should be some kind of statue of him somewhere outside Safeco.

With that being said I don't see why he should be in the hall of fame. As a DH your only job on the team is to hit right? well his career numbers just do not add up to a HOF resume IMO. Do not compare him to David Ortiz that man is apart of the 500 home run club he is a 3x world champion about to have 10x all star selections assuming he doesn't get hurt, 2x AL RBI leader, home run leader, 295 ABs in the postseasons hitting .295 with 17 homers. Edgar has 128 postseason ABs batting .266 with 8 homers. So you really cant compare the two.

If edgar played the field and had some gold glove honors to help his case that would be a little different. The other members of the hall are usually in the 500 homer club or 3000 hit club or have major honors such as 10+ AS appearances/gold glove awards/batting titles etc

I love edgar if he was into politics I would vote for him for mayor of seattle or have some kind of major council seat but I don't see him as a HOF member

 

[NWinAZ]

I am going to play devils advocate with this and I am sure all you guys are gonna gang up on me but before you all do im gonna say that Edgar is my all time favorite mariner, infact he is my all time favorite seattle sports athlete I feel that there should be some kind of statue of him somewhere outside Safeco.

With that being said I don't see why he should be in the hall of fame. As a DH your only job on the team is to hit right? well his career numbers just do not add up to a HOF resume IMO. Do not compare him to David Ortiz that man is apart of the 500 home run club he is a 3x world champion about to have 10x all star selections assuming he doesn't get hurt, 2x AL RBI leader, home run leader, 295 ABs in the postseasons hitting .295 with 17 homers. Edgar has 128 postseason ABs batting .266 with 8 homers. So you really cant compare the two.

If edgar played the field and had some gold glove honors to help his case that would be a little different. The other members of the hall are usually in the 500 homer club or 3000 hit club or have major honors such as 10+ AS appearances/gold glove awards/batting titles etc

I love edgar if he was into politics I would vote for him for mayor of seattle or have some kind of major council seat but I don't see him as a HOF member

My rebuttal;

1- Home runs are over rated. Dave Kingman hit 442 and he is an average player at best.
2- All Star voting is also meaningless. It is a popular vote.
3- Starting pitchers only pitch and never bat so they should be held to the same one-sidedness as a DH then.
4- Closers pitch about 50-60 innings a year out of about 1500 innings.
5- Frank Thomas played more innings at DH than Edgar and when he played 1B he was rated low defensively and he made the Hall.

I have no problem someone arguing Edgar isn't Hall material based on his numbers, but those other arguments just don't hold water anymore.

 

[dude82]

My rebuttal;

1- Home runs are over rated. Dave Kingman hit 442 and he is an average player at best.
2- All Star voting is also meaningless. It is a popular vote.
3- Starting pitchers only pitch and never bat so they should be held to the same one-sidedness as a DH then.
4- Closers pitch about 50-60 innings a year out of about 1500 innings.
5- Frank Thomas played more innings at DH than Edgar and when he played 1B he was rated low defensively and he made the Hall.

I have no problem someone arguing Edgar isn't Hall material based on his numbers, but those other arguments just don't hold water anymore.

National League pitchers get to hit, although they're more often asked to lay down bunts than swing away, so pitching performance (and, to a lesser extent, being able to field the position) is still the #1 factor when evaluating a pitcher for the HOF.

I'm just perplexed that anyone would continue to use the DH as an argument against voting a player into the Hall of Fame. It's been an official position for a little over 40 years and despite the fact that it's only ever been in the AL and that there isn't a long list of greats whose primary role when they played was as a DH, the greats that did play it deserve as much consideration for a spot in the Hall of Fame as any great player at any other long established position does. It's ridiculous that the league itself thought so highly of Edgar as to name an award after him to be given to the best player at his position in a given year, only to have baseball writers use the position he played against him in determining whether he's deserving of a Hall of Fame vote.

 

[seattlefan75]

I don't knock edgar for being a DH my position was that if your only purpose on a team was only to hit if you do not have 500 homers or 3000 hits or atleast close to those stats and there are dudes in the HOF that have those numbers AND played the field how does that make edgar deserving?

Again I love the guy but I just don't see it

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The biggest knock i see with Edgar's numbers is that he did not reach 9000 PAs... his longevity was not great due to all his injuries and coming into the league when he was 24... Another knock, is that he played in the steroid era and only hit 30 or more HRs once in his career...

Those 2 things for a DH is pretty significant IMO...

But i do agree that he should be in WAY Before David Ortiz...

 

[SeattleCoug]

I don't knock edgar for being a DH my position was that if your only purpose on a team was only to hit if you do not have 500 homers or 3000 hits or atleast close to those stats and there are dudes in the HOF that have those numbers AND played the field how does that make edgar deserving?

Again I love the guy but I just don't see it

I'm just not sure you can use 500 homers or 3000 hits as a benchmark here. Would you use a similar benchmark for a closer in terms of number of saves? Guys like KRod, Papelbon and Joe Nathan have more saves then HOFs such as Rollie Fingers and Gossage. Are those 3 HOFs? It's tough to use the common stats to tell the whole story.

From my point of view it just doesn't make sense to include Ortiz and Thomas but don't include Edgar. Sure it's hard not to be biased but I think the big picture supports that.

 

[blstoker]

I don't knock edgar for being a DH my position was that if your only purpose on a team was only to hit if you do not have 500 homers or 3000 hits or atleast close to those stats and there are dudes in the HOF that have those numbers AND played the field how does that make edgar deserving?

Again I love the guy but I just don't see it

And that's the real knock on any consideration for the Hall of Fame. It's not about who were the best players - it's just about who started early enough and stuck around long enough to be able to make those key statistical numbers. Looking solely for key statistical milestones (and/or proximity to them) makes it more likely for better than average stat compilers to make the hall than the truly elite players of their time. As for defense being involved, Gary Carter and Ozzie Smith are the only 2 in recent memory where I would say that defense played any significant role in their election to the Hall of Fame.

One misconception is that injuries and a lack of "longevity" are keeping Edgar out - and even if that's what the voters are thinking - they're wrong. Edgar's numbers once he came into the league are elite compared to players who are in the Hall of Fame who played in the same time period. The issue with his numbers isn't that he didn't play long enough - it's that he didn't become the full time starter until he was 27.

Edgar's 27+ rankings vs. HoF (21 batters who played during his career):

G - 1963 (8th; Biggio 2205)
PA - 8394 (8th; Biggio 9913)
AB - 6967 (10th; Biggio 8596)
R - 1193 (6th; Rickey Henderson 1563)
H - 2258 (6th; Wade Boggs 2479)
2B - 500 (2nd; Biggio 562)
3B - 13 (20th; Paul Molitor 78)
HR - 307 (8th; Mike Schmidt 417)
RBI - 1231 (3rd; Dave Winfield 1412)
SB - 47 (16th; Henderson 833)
BB - 1260 (2nd; Henderson 1571)
SO - 1164 (18th; Ozzie Smith 423)
BA - .313 (3rd; Boggs .325)
OBP - .421 (1st)
SLG - .521 (5th; Mike Piazza .542)
OPS - .941 (2nd; Frank Thomas .949)
OB* - 3441 (2nd, Henderson 3604)

per 162:
PA - 692.73 (12th; Molitor 732.98)
AB - 574.96 (18th; Militor 650.60)
R - 98.45 (9th; Henderson 117.93)
H - 179.99 (7th; Kirby Puckett
2B - 41.26 (2nd; Biggio 41.29)
3B - 1.07 (20th; Robin Yount 7.12)
HR - 25.34 (9th; Ken Griffey, Jr. 39.35)
RBI - 101.59 (9th; Thomas 117.78)
SB - 3.88 (16th; Henderson 62.85)
BB - 103.98 (3rd; Henderson 118.54)
SO - 96.06 (17th; Smith 34.44)
OB - 283.97 (1st)

These numbers aren't to show that Edgar is the best player ever, just that his numbers compare favorably to those who made the Hall of Fame. His numbers consistently rank in the top half of the group, the only consistent exception is his speed numbers. Just because he got his numbers between 27 and 37 instead of 22 and 32 doesn't mean that he should be looked at differently. They've already let in Piazza, Puckett, Larkin, Rice, Carter, Smith and Sandberg - all guys whose numbers are similar if not worse than Edgar's, and those are just the guys in recent years.

I know, I know. He played too much DH (strike one), he played in Seattle (strike two) and he wasn't a starter til 27 (strike three).

 

[StanMarsh51]

These numbers aren't to show that Edgar is the best player ever, just that his numbers compare favorably to those who made the Hall of Fame. His numbers consistently rank in the top half of the group, the only consistent exception is his speed numbers. Just because he got his numbers between 27 and 37 instead of 22 and 32 doesn't mean that he should be looked at differently. They've already let in Piazza, Puckett, Larkin, Rice, Carter, Smith and Sandberg - all guys whose numbers are similar if not worse than Edgar's, and those are just the guys in recent years.

I know, I know. He played too much DH (strike one), he played in Seattle (strike two) and he wasn't a starter til 27 (strike three).

Yea, but a good amount of these guys played premium defensive positions where hitters are held to a lesser standard because of that. I mean, had Edgar been a SS or CF or C for most of his career, is it a solid bet that his offensive numbers take a hit? I'd think so.

I do think there's a good case for Edgar being in the HOF (his offense was good enough to overcome whatever else he lacked), but I don't think comparing him to shortstops and catchers and centerfielders is the right supporting argument.

 

[Tech_God]

I have a feeling that Junior is going to make a plea to the voters during his H.O.F. speech. That might help out.

 

[wazzu31]

I have a feeling that Junior is going to make a plea to the voters during his H.O.F. speech. That might help out.

I don't know dude, Junior begged fans at his Mariners HOF about Chuck Armstrong and it fell on deaf ears and boo's

 

[NWinAZ]

I don't know dude, Junior begged fans at his Mariners HOF about Chuck Armstrong and it fell on deaf ears and boo's

I was literally there when Armstrong got the call about Junior officially coming back to the Mariners. He was as giddy as anyone I have ever seen. I actually liked Armstrong. It is Lincoln who drives me nuts.

 

[wazzu31]

I was literally there when Armstrong got the call about Junior officially coming back to the Mariners. He was as giddy as anyone I have ever seen. I actually liked Armstrong. It is Lincoln who drives me nuts.

Both of them drove me nuts, I never met Lincoln but I did meet Armstrong. He seemed like a good guy but didn't have passion for baseball and we know Lincoln doesn't. He just seemed like a real friendly businessman

 

[NWinAZ]

Both of them drove me nuts, I never met Lincoln but I did meet Armstrong. He seemed like a good guy but didn't have passion for baseball and we know Lincoln doesn't. He just seemed like a real friendly businessman

I disagree about Armstrong not having passion for baseball. I don't think he was baseball savvy, but I think he had passion for baseball...especially Mariners baseball. Pretty nice guy to talk with. I never spoke to Lincoln either mainly because he was very standoffish. Jack would talk with you, but always seemed uncomfortable in doing so.

 

[wazzu31]

I disagree about Armstrong not having passion for baseball. I don't think he was baseball savvy, but I think he had passion for baseball...especially Mariners baseball. Pretty nice guy to talk with. I never spoke to Lincoln either mainly because he was very standoffish. Jack would talk with you, but always seemed uncomfortable in doing so.

Guess we can agree to disagree with Armstrong, maybe my opinions are bias cause I only met him while he was down in Tacoma with Pat Gillick and I hate that guy with a passion.