Clemente vs Kaline

[obxyankeefan]

Interesting discussion at work tonight. I was surprised by how similar their careers are.

 

[jalopy]

I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit and remember only the tail end of Kaline's career and, thus, none of Roberto's. That said, my father was a huge fan of the way Clemente approached the game and often told of his passion for the sport. That is good enough for me. I don't think it is a slight to Kaline to be ranked behind Clemente.
Statistically, they are very close. Kaline had a lower AVG but a higher OBP, a much higher BB/K, and hit for more power. Defensively, I don't believe anyone is RC's equal but Kaline was very good. Sabermetrics say the two are very equal with Kaline, perhaps, getting the slight edge. Still, Clemente's attitude and flair give him the edge in my book. I wish I had seen him play.

 

[steveringo]

Two all-time greats.

Roberto Clemente Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
Al Kaline Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Maybe the greatest Tiger and greatest Pirate - and they played at the same time....

I love that Clemente was signed by the Dodgers in 1954, but they didn't protect him from the Rule 5 draft - where Pittsburgh took him. D'oh...

For random reference, Clemente made $150k in his final 1972 season (for a career total of $758K). Kaline made $110K in his final 1974 season (for a career total of $1.18M)..

 

[Wazmankg]

They were both 1st ballot HOFers for a reason. I never thought much separated them. I guess Clemente is often thought to be the better player. He was flashier, but the numbers don't really support the notion that he was better in just about any aspect of the game. Clemente still had a couple of good years left in him when he died, though. There was a story out of the Tiger's camp several years ago when Al was working with their outfielders one year. The word was that they asked him to quit throwing the ball back into the infield because he was making the guys look bad. He was in his mid-50s at the time. Might be apocryphal, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Good thread...maybe from this we could do a 'historical comparisons/matchup' thread to get some activity on here until the season starts.

They both had the same career OPS+, and the WAR was very close (Clemente had a WAR 1.6 higher) with Clemente having about 1300 less plate appearances.

With Clemente, he was still putting up all star caliber seasons when he died...his last 3 seasons, he had a 5.5, 7.2, 4.8 (in 102 games) WAR.

 

[BigDDude]

Interesting discussion at work tonight. I was surprised by how similar their careers are.

How did the discussion on whos arm was better go?


Just curious........

 

[soxfan1468927]

I go with Clemente, but damn it's close

 

[jalopy]

Kaline just never had that "career" year. Early in his career ('55) he put up his best numbers and then was Mr. consistency. I also take away points for only making it to one WS, and that was in a year he was injured. It just seemed Clemente carried the Pirates in a way that Kaline didn't.
As I said, sabermatricians would give the edge to Kaline but I would still go with RC. Close call, though.

 

[element1286]

Different career arcs too.

Kaline started out as an MVP candidate at 20, and played at an All Star Level, save a few years, until about 32, then a slow decline to good then just above replacement.

Clemente started off slower, albeit still good, and production says he wasn't really an All Star until he was 26, then 9 of the next 11 years he was above 5.0 WAR each season, an the other two were 4.0 and 4.8, the 4.8 year being his last year at the age of 37.

BTW, for reference was using 5.0 BR WAR as All Star.

 

[obxyankeefan]

How did the discussion on whos arm was better go?


Just curious........

I work with people that grew up watching Kaline and still worship his every step. Their answer to everything Kaline is you had to see them play.

 

[BigDDude]

I work with people that grew up watching Kaline and still worship his every step. Their answer to everything Kaline is you had to see them play.

I did, as I did Clemente.

No more than when they were on the game of the week, but still.


For those Tiger fans that worship Kaline, I wonder who Kaline would say had the better arm of the 2?


I think I already know myself.......

 

[obxyankeefan]

I did, as I did Clemente.

No more than when they were on the game of the week, but still.


For those Tiger fans that worship Kaline, I wonder who Kaline would say had the better arm of the 2?


I think I already know myself.......

in our morbid sense of humor, we decided that Kaline could have been the third best right fielder of all time if he had just done a humanitarian plane flight.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

Pitt homer here BECAUSE of Clemente...What a player he was to watch. Timely hits, catches and throws.

He not only played hard on the field, but off it too. This comparison is not even close once one gets past the stat comparison.

 

[BigDDude]

Pitt homer here BECAUSE of Clemente...What a player he was to watch. Timely hits, catches and throws.

He not only played hard on the field, but off it too. This comparison is not even close once one gets past the stat comparison.

Funny how so many people can see or miss things, and only as they can never seem to take off their "homer" glasses......

 

[jdwills126]

Clemente was a natural athlete that succeeded even though his mechanics were awful. I watched a breakdown of his swing and it was the most fucked up lower body step I ever saw. But he still hit the damn ball. If his mechanics were better I bet he would have had no equal.

Kaline was great RF but got to play in a band box that was old Tiger Stadium. That stadium probably gave him 5-10 more HRs a year for the first half of his career. Not taking anything away from him but he definitely got a boost power numbers wise.

I wonder how much bump Clemente gets for dying the way he did? You just want to give a guy that much more credit for flaming out helping others. Even without his tragic death the guy was probably a notch better than Al. And I am a Tigers fan.

Kaline breaking hs hand in a bat slamming incident sure doesn't help his legacy.

 

[BigDDude]

Clemente was a natural athlete that succeeded even though his mechanics were awful. I watched a breakdown of his swing and it was the most fucked up lower body step I ever saw. But he still hit the damn ball. If his mechanics were better I bet he would have had no equal.

Kaline was great RF but got to play in a band box that was old Tiger Stadium. That stadium probably gave him 5-10 more HRs a year for the first half of his career. Not taking anything away from him but he definitely got a boost power numbers wise.

I wonder how much bump Clemente gets for dying the way he did? You just want to give a guy that much more credit for flaming out helping others. Even without his tragic death the guy was probably a notch better than Al. And I am a Tigers fan.

Kaline breaking hs hand in a bat slamming incident sure doesn't help his legacy.

I would hope none. I would also hope that anyone doing any judging of players does so only with their eyes and their brain, and not their heart.

I have found to some that is impossible, and, I just have to deal with that.

 

[jalopy]

He not only played hard on the field, but off it too. This comparison is not even close once one gets past the stat comparison.

This statement is very hard for me to understand, yet somehow I agree with it. Stats don't lie. By almost any measurable, Kaline was the superior offensive threat. He had more discipline, power and bat control. Born in 1967, I really can't judge using the eyeball test so I only have stats and the opinions of others to go by. That said, Clemente exemplifies what baseball is all about in my mind. He played the game with a ferocity that few others did yet, by all accounts, was a gentleman off the field. It is for this reason that I would give him the edge if fielding my own team but you really can't go wrong either way.

 

[BigDDude]

This statement is very hard for me to understand, yet somehow I agree with it. Stats don't lie. By almost any measurable, Kaline was the superior offensive threat. He had more discipline, power and bat control. Born in 1967, I really can't judge using the eyeball test so I only have stats and the opinions of others to go by. That said, Clemente exemplifies what baseball is all about in my mind. He played the game with a ferocity that few others did yet, by all accounts, was a gentleman off the field. It is for this reason that I would give him the edge if fielding my own team but you really can't go wrong either way.

Just making sure that I get this point out there as well.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Two all-time greats.

Roberto Clemente Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
Al Kaline Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Maybe the greatest Tiger and greatest Pirate - and they played at the same time....

I love that Clemente was signed by the Dodgers in 1954, but they didn't protect him from the Rule 5 draft - where Pittsburgh took him. D'oh...

For random reference, Clemente made $150k in his final 1972 season (for a career total of $758K). Kaline made $110K in his final 1974 season (for a career total of $1.18M)..

The greatest Tiger and the greatest Pirate did play at the same time, but they weren't either of these two. I don't care how much you ding them for playing in a weaker league, Cobb and Wagner are still the answers to those questions.

 

[obxyankeefan]

This statement is very hard for me to understand, yet somehow I agree with it. Stats don't lie. By almost any measurable, Kaline was the superior offensive threat. He had more discipline, power and bat control. Born in 1967, I really can't judge using the eyeball test so I only have stats and the opinions of others to go by. That said, Clemente exemplifies what baseball is all about in my mind. He played the game with a ferocity that few others did yet, by all accounts, was a gentleman off the field. It is for this reason that I would give him the edge if fielding my own team but you really can't go wrong either way.

Having been born in 70 I never saw either play other then old films. I was surprised how close the stats were because having lived in different areas of the country I have noticed that Clemente is beloved all over the country while Kaline is normally a local thing. Not having a dog in this fight it would be very hard for me to choose one over the other.