Bandwagon revolving door

[JohnU]

I think the All-Star break broke my perpetual bad habit of becoming emotionally involved in a baseball team that has 3 minor-leaguers in its starting lineup in a division where 2 1/2 games separates the top from the fourth -place team.

I watched the first three innings of Saturday's game, turned it off and went to Menard's.

Sandwich slices around that -- two immensely interesting minor-league games in Gary. THIS is where it's at, cats.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Well the Reds recent gutter dive should shake off those fair weather bandwagoners...not that I mind them at all...like visiting Cubs fans that buy lots of beer in GABP, the more the better, IMO.

Hate is too strong a word, but I would qualify as a anti-Yankee...with the realization that the poor boys mentality of jealousy for a more successful, richer team is probably my root cause. I think it's fair to say that anyone with over 3,000 hits is unique. The fact Jeter is the ALL TIME hittingest Yankee is downright impressive...and he's been a great representative of the Yankees-as a true team Captain. He did it without the biggest contract, or the most homers, in the biggest microscope in MLB.

Pete Rose wasnt Derek Jeter, and vice-versa. Rose was more Cobb, and Jeter more Ripken, in personality and perspective, IMO...Rose was/is as loved in Cincinnati as Jeter in NY, but the persona Rose represented the Reds with as a player was unfortunately defecated on by his persona as a manager banned for betting on baseball...even though he never bet on them to lose ( a sad and desperate home town defense, I know). To some degree, Pete's era, inherent trust of the good ole boy / hush-hush trust of questionable people, wether in the media, MLB, the dugout or at the bookie's place led him somewhat naively where Jeter's better awareness (and or possibly personal standards) kept himself more distanced from unwanted attention. I have hopes for Pete's forgiveness, but the fact is, some mistakes can't be un-done. I'm sure the families of the Black Sox understand that.

 

[chico ruiz]

don't get sucked into the media hype mr. 1507. that was the point of my post; concentrating solely on what has gone on between the lines was the premise of the comparison. personality, perspective, and persona. these are all media creations and machinations. join my group, in the 21st century, who don't believe anything that emanates from american cable, radio, and, for damn sure, network media. nothing. zero. i stay vigilant at discerning what is real. make an effort to transcend these foolhardy distractions; many, of which, are by design. not subliminal, so much as out and out lies. i'm a empiricist mr. 1507. i don't need any media type to push an agenda or explain to me the obvious personality differences of rose and jeter. but, the all out effort exhibited by these two players is very comparable. more importantly, the doing 'whatever it takes to win' aesthetic is a blood type exact match.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Not really- doing "whatever it takes to win" is extremely variable depending on perspective limitations. Lots of PED users hid behind that excuse. I find it hard to believe there are many that hold the media spin lower in regard to value than me, and i would disagree that if Chico thinks that his "generation" isnt duped by media propaganda, the current populist social, political and economic demographics outside baseball, would beg to drastically differ...

I do think we agree Jeter was a special player. MLB is just understandably trying to maximize his (and others like Rivera) current PR value to sell their product after a few black eyes, not much different that the idea of an un biased, overseeing commissioner was sold after the Black Sox, or how the HR assault ( fueled by then hidden PED use) "saved" baseball after the MLB strike and subsequent marketshare losses to other pro sports.

 

[chico ruiz]

you and i are of the same generation 1507. perspective limitations? what does that even mean? PEDs? let's forget the "whatever it takes to win" semantic debate for a minute, and consider the similarities, because it doesn't matter what lens you're looking through when it comes to these two baseball players. specifically, their play on the field.

nevertheless, as i think of the various highlight reels of rose and jeter i can't help but see a strong resemblance. jeter's dive into the stands. rose bowling over fosse. a zillion slides into 2nd base attempting to break up double plays. running, not walking, to first base on walks. jeter's relay toss to posada getting giambi out v. the A's in the playoffs. rose stretched a lot of singles into doubles, and so did jeter. charlie hustle. a pejorative, but nevertheless aptly named by a couple of yankees during spring training in the early sixties. i felt honored to watch him play at crosley and that 70's monstrosity of a cement bowl down by the river. same with jeter. i've seen him play over one hundred games a year since 2002. both team captains. they wanted to play the game. every game. and winning championships was the only acceptable outcome. they were 'winners.' pete rose played in more winning games than any other player in mlb history.

and here's something peculiar to both players: they ran when they hit the ball. an oddity, i know.
both watch the ball all the way to the catcher's glove. highest-level focus. god given baseball intuition, with highest-level effort. these two players were always a notch above their competition in this category. i remember thinking in october 1975 that pete rose was simply not going to let the reds lose that world series. i thought the same thing about jeter in 2009.

but, the work ethic of these two all-time greats is unmatched. never satisfied, they relentlessly worked on their craft. a .330 average could be improved upon. here's a quote from jeter that could just as well come from the lips of pete rose. "I'm proud of the guidance my parents gave me in helping me determined the best ways to methodically move closer and close to my dream, and I'm proud of how I've worked to reach that dream and maintain it. For me, the dream of being a baseball player is a daily challenge - not only living that dream but ensuring it stays alive." their levels of production from ages 35 to 40 is all the evidence you need. look at their stats at 38 years of age. games played, hits, avg., etc. etc. rose batted .331 with a .418 OBP. jeter batted .316 with a .362 OBP, and led mlb in hits. not many other players that you can even begin to compare them with. certainly not modern day ballplayers. it's astonishing, but it was always more about the intangibles with these 2 players.

critics of these 2 great ball players say that they played with all-stars on their respective teams. that's why they were so good, and had such excellent numbers. i personally think they have it exactly wrong.
rose and jeter made everybody around them better. that's why they were captains. when you are still beating out infield grounders at the age of forty, with nothing but desire, you can't help but inspire.

 

[Redsfan1507]

A lot of similarities...not least of which, they were captains of their teams, not just in name only- largely identified as the face of their franchise for a long time. Jeter, all with the Yankees, Rose wore different uniforms, but was always a Red. Both determined, proud, relentless and uncompromising. Both had PhD's in baseball, but IMO, Jeter far more intelligent outside the lines...from different generations, and defined differences in media moxy. Rose came up in backwater Ohio, in a generation where a beat writer could be trusted to extend some confidentiality to a few indescretions. Jeter lived in the 24 hour spotlight of NYC where nothing is missed or unreported. Maybe Jeter got better advice, or more likely he just wasn't inclined to those character flaws Rose had, and knew when to shut his mouth. I think Jeter will be healthier in retirement, seeking a less regimented schedule, where that prospect may have been the only thing Rose feared. Jeter is leaving on his terms, Rose obviously didn't. So, their stories are destined to end differently. I see in Jeter DiMaggio's reserved grace, but Rose- more Cobb-ill conceived selfish tragedy and stubborn denial.

I also think they both had a lot more to do with making their teams better, than the other way around.

 

[Redsfan1507]

I guess I find it intriguing that completely different characters/personalities can share the same motivations, skill sets, achieve such similar results on the field, and such contrasting ones off it.

 

[JohnU]

Rose would be hard-pressed to endure his style of play in today's game.