Assessing a QB (Beyond Competency)

[duke1861]

are you going to watch the games this year?

Yes, I have watched all so far.
I enjoy watching the growth of our players and watching howell ball out.

I don't care about the scoreboard at this time since it's a transition year and the staff, front office, and team will look much different next year with upgrades everywhere.

 

[deanpet21]

that much is true , however it dings you when discussing real issues with the team

dings? Even if we win you guys are upset.

 

[skinsdad62]

dings? Even if we win you guys are upset.

i am not upset when we win but i can sure as heck understand what is and isnt good for the long term future

 

[Niner Outlaw]

It really depends on how many tiers you want to make. 3 tiers? 4-5? The real arguments come in around the edges of all those tiers anyway.

I'd probably go with 4 tiers. I think There are a few truly great QBs who would do well just about anywhere you put them (Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, etc.), a slightly larger group who are excelling for various reasons but are not top tier talents (Tua, Purdy, Stafford, Cousins, etc.), a large group of journeymen who hover on/above/below the average mark (Geno, Dak, Jimmy G), and a few truly bad QBs that would stink just about anywhere you put them (Wilson, D.Jones).

How long does it take to determine which group a particular QB is in? Some you can tell right away. Others it takes a couple of seasons to figure it out. And we should keep in mind that players can move between the tiers. After all, Brady's first couple of years starting, he didn't look like a generational talent, but over the years, he grew to become one. Tua was in the journeyman level under Flores in Miami, but moved up a level when McDaniels and Hill arrived. I think Wilson and Dak started off in the situation group, but have fallen into the journeyman group.

For Washington, I guess the question is whether the team should build around Howell (Oline, etc.) or whether they are better off swinging for the fence and trying to get an upgrade at QB. It looks like this season could end up being an evaluation season to answer that question. One would expect that the new GM and HC will want their own QB?

 

[deanpet21]

i am not upset when we win but i can sure as heck understand what is and isnt good for the long term future

I know your stance you want to blow it up even if we win.

 

[skinsdad62]

I know your stance you want to blow it up even if we win.

i want a real team that can win and compete for superbowls not the crap we have been given for 30 yrs

 

[duke1861]

I know your stance you want to blow it up even if we win.

And skinsdad is right.

You need to pick a lane Dean.

You just admitted that Rivera sux as a GM. You even admitted that you don't want a coach centric type of front office next.

Winning this year proves nothing. Just Google Ron rivera and get back with me. You even admitted you didn't want a 3 to 5 year rebuild...but that is what has happened.

Start looking at the whole picture Dean. That has always been your problem.

You say in 1 post that Rivera sux as a GM, but in the next post you imply you want him around if the get to 9 wins and win a playoff game. Its confusing.

 

[deanpet21]

And skinsdad is right.

You need to pick a lane Dean.

You just admitted that Rivera sux as a GM. You even admitted that you don't want a coach centric type of front office next.

Winning this year proves nothing. Just Google Ron rivera and get back with me. You even admitted you didn't want a 3 to 5 year rebuild...but that is what has happened.

Start looking at the whole picture Dean. That has always been your problem.

You say in 1 post that Rivera sux as a GM, but in the next post you imply you want him around if the get to 9 wins and win a playoff game. Its confusing.

im not happy with RR as a GM. It's possible if we do win this year Harris can take RR's GM duties away. The lane Im in is to win.

 

[duke1861]

im not happy with RR as a GM. It's possible if we do win this year Harris can take RR's GM duties away. The lane Im in is to win.

But you are happy with him as a coach?
I am confused.


If you want to win, wouldn't you be in favor of a better coach and better GM then?

His coaching record is worse than his GM record?

You really want someone who has had 4 winning seasons in 13 years and 1 in 4 years as three WSH coach?

Why would Rivera agree to a demotion? Why would Harris be like snyder and force the GM to keep Rivera as a head coach? Didn't we want snyder gone?

 

[chillerdab]

That’s fair. However, I see 6 games decided by 5+ runs and another 2 games decided by 4+ runs, so far. There have also been 5 games decided by 3 runs(those are borderline). And it’s not just the games. The series have been mostly lopsided, as well. We haven’t had a single winner-take-all game yet.

It really depends on how many tiers you want to make. 3 tiers? 4-5? The real arguments come in around the edges of all those tiers anyway.

I'd probably go with 4 tiers. I think There are a few truly great QBs who would do well just about anywhere you put them (Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, etc.), a slightly larger group who are excelling for various reasons but are not top tier talents (Tua, Purdy, Stafford, Cousins, etc.), a large group of journeymen who hover on/above/below the average mark (Geno, Dak, Jimmy G), and a few truly bad QBs that would stink just about anywhere you put them (Wilson, D.Jones).

How long does it take to determine which group a particular QB is in? Some you can tell right away. Others it takes a couple of seasons to figure it out. And we should keep in mind that players can move between the tiers. After all, Brady's first couple of years starting, he didn't look like a generational talent, but over the years, he grew to become one. Tua was in the journeyman level under Flores in Miami, but moved up a level when McDaniels and Hill arrived. I think Wilson and Dak started off in the situation group, but have fallen into the journeyman group.

For Washington, I guess the question is whether the team should build around Howell (Oline, etc.) or whether they are better off swinging for the fence and trying to get an upgrade at QB. It looks like this season could end up being an evaluation season to answer that question. One would expect that the new GM and HC will want their own QB?

One things for sure that we all can agree on:

Snyder fucked up big time when he let Kyle Shanahan go, in addition to McVay, LeFleur, and the other head coach that was on Shanny Sr.’s coaching staff.

Holy frack do the niners look freakin good!

 

[deanpet21]

But you are happy with him as a coach?
I am confused.


If you want to win, wouldn't you be in favor of a better coach and better GM then?

His coaching record is worse than his GM record?

You really want someone who has had 4 winning seasons in 13 years and 1 in 4 years as three WSH coach?

Why would Rivera agree to a demotion? Why would Harris be like snyder and force the GM to keep Rivera as a head coach? Didn't we want snyder gone?

i already said give RR this year as a HC to see what happens. RR would agree to the demotion if he wanted to keep his HC job here if he wins. What about the players? Do they have a say? Of course, this is only if we win this year. I will also give EB first shot if someone tries to lure him away with a HC position.

Who is this better coach that you speak of?

 

[duke1861]

i already said give RR this year as a HC to see what happens. RR would agree to the demotion if he wanted to keep his HC job here if he wins. What about the players? Do they have a say? Of course, this is only if we win this year. I will also give EB first shot if someone tries to lure him away with a HC position.

Who is this better coach that you speak of?

No, players don't have a say in who is and who isn't the head coach. I dont think Harris needs to call in players and ask their opinion on the head coach. Again, that is something snyder would do. I am not interested in another owner like snyder. I hope you aren't either.

I am not interested in what happens this year with Rivera and shocked you are. You have never once addressed the fact that:

He hasn't had a winning season in 3 years despite having total roster control

He hasn't had a winning season in 5 straight year

He has had only 3 winning seasons in 12 years as a coach.

Only 3 total playoff wins in 12 years.

He should have been fired last year but harris didn't clearly have the time. Why winning in 1 out of 4 seasons as a head coach speaks to you is beyond me. I still to this day don't understand your loyalty to Rivera. You have never provided any type of evidence why Rivera should remain our head coach. If the facts i just provided are trumped by a 9 win season, I can't help you and we are fans of different teams.

EB could be a good coach, I am not sure yet as we have 2/3 of the season left. That is much different than 12 years of evidence with Rivera. EB currently is leading the #19 offense in the league. He needs to do better.

I have my personal opinions on good head coaching candidates like Ben Johnson or Ken dorsey, but that is up to the GM.

 

[Breed]

well, I would like to see the team win this year. IF the defense was doing what it was supposed to do, we could win. So, winning is not in your top 10 list this year?

The defense is doing what it's done every year.

 

[deanpet21]

No, players don't have a say in who is and who isn't the head coach. I dont think Harris needs to call in players and ask their opinion on the head coach. Again, that is something snyder would do. I am not interested in another owner like snyder. I hope you aren't either.

I am not interested in what happens this year with Rivera and shocked you are. You have never once addressed the fact that:

He hasn't had a winning season in 3 years despite having total roster control

He hasn't had a winning season in 5 straight year

He has had only 3 winning seasons in 12 years as a coach.

Only 3 total playoff wins in 12 years.

He should have been fired last year but harris didn't clearly have the time. Why winning in 1 out of 4 seasons as a head coach speaks to you is beyond me. I still to this day don't understand your loyalty to Rivera. You have never provided any type of evidence why Rivera should remain our head coach. If the facts i just provided are trumped by a 9 win season, I can't help you and we are fans of different teams.

EB could be a good coach, I am not sure yet as we have 2/3 of the season left. That is much different than 12 years of evidence with Rivera. EB currently is leading the #19 offense in the league. He needs to do better.

I have my personal opinions on good head coaching candidates like Ben Johnson or Ken dorsey, but that is up to the GM.

im giving RR this year. year #4 not #14. lol. That's all I'm saying. I know the stats. No, they are not trumped by a 9-win season. If we get into the playoffs with 9 wins as the #7th seed and beat the Eagles or 49ers the #2 seed, I dont think its cut and dry Harris will fire him. Im not in the group of fire RR if he wins in the playoffs. I understand his seat is really hot right now.

 

[deanpet21]

The defense is doing what it's done every year.

what do you mean slow starts?

 

[duke1861]

im giving RR this year. year #4 not #14. lol. That's all I'm saying. I know the stats. No, they are not trumped by a 9-win season. If we get into the playoffs with 9 wins as the #7th seed and beat the Eagles or 49ers the #2 seed, I dont think its cut and dry Harris will fire him. Im not in the group of fire RR if he wins in the playoffs. I understand his seat is really hot right now.

I understand you are not in the group of firing Rivera if he wins in the playoffs.

If you know the stats like you claim, you know that a winning season under Rivera has zero bearing on continued and established success. In other words, a winning season is not an indicator of future success under Rivera historically. You have 12 years of data at your disposal. He had never had back to back winning seasons as a coach. Apparently you feel that would change.

You stated that Rivera sux as a GM, as such, why would Harris want to keep a GM around that sux due to a 9 game winning season and 1 playoff win? I don't think any NFL team would want to actively keep a GM that sux....especially an owner who shelled out 6.5 billion.

Harris will not demote Rivera and keep him as head coach as you said. That would require a new contract Dean. Rivera's contract with the organization is that of President and Head coach. Any contract change would result in a new contract or any amended contract. Do you really want a new or amended contract for Rivera Dean? Maybe you do?

 

[deanpet21]

I understand you are not in the group of firing Rivera if he wins in the playoffs.

If you know the stats like you claim, you know that a winning season under Rivera has zero bearing on continued and established success. In other words, a winning season is not an indicator of future success under Rivera historically. You have 12 years of data at your disposal. He had never had back to back winning seasons as a coach. Apparently you feel that would change.

You stated that Rivera sux as a GM, as such, why would Harris want to keep a GM around that sux due to a 9 game winning season and 1 playoff win? I don't think any NFL team would want to actively keep a GM that sux....especially an owner who shelled out 6.5 billion.

Harris will not demote Rivera and keep him as head coach as you said. That would require a new contract Dean. Rivera's contract with the organization is that of President and Head coach. Any contract change would result in a new contract or any amended contract. Do you really want a new or amended contract for Rivera Dean? Maybe you do?

I didnt realize that as for the contract. I just dont see Harris firing RR right now. That looks like a Danny Synder move. On the team website RR is listed as HC. Did that change this year?

 

[duke1861]

I didnt realize that as for the contract. I just dont see Harris firing RR right now. That looks like a Danny Synder move. On the team website RR is listed as HC. Did that change this year?

Agreed...no firing this year.
You are correct.

Rivera is still president and defacto GM. I am no contract lawyer but he was hired as team president, gm, and head coach. Removing his as president and gm would alter his contract significantly.

Remember on draft night with Mayhew and the patriots? Mayhew said, " let me check with the coach and get back with you"

Rivera still has total control. No idea why the website changed.