Series Thread: 3) Houston Rockets vs 6) OKC Thunder

[ATL96Steeler]

I'm not saying that I want or think he should do anything.
I just think he is what he is.
My OPINION though is that players like Durant won't or don't like playing with him which puts the Thunder is a tough position.

I'm not sure what "he is what he is" means from your perspective, but I agree the Thunder is in a tough position.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Strange that when Durant was there and Westbrook had to reel it in Adams was considered one of the up and coming centers. Oladipo is solid, but he requires the ball in his hands and that will never happen on that team. In a few of those 4th quarters when Westbrook got tunnel vision the Rockets would leave McDermott unguarded in the corner. Say what you want about that guy, but he can shoot.

So is it a surrounding cast issue that Westbrook ignores a wide open 40% 3 point shooter to shoot 4 for 18 against double and triple coverage in the 4th?

It is almost a guarantee that every player that is looked down on in that roster will be much better once they move on. Basketball is a game of rhythm, and only one person will be getting into a rhythm while Westbrook tries to prove a point.

Admittedly I don't watch enough reg season NBA to know what the OKC roster is capable of, but every playoff series I've watched over the years, it seemed like KD/RW and rest...now it looked like RW and rest. The last time I saw Adams in a meaningful series he was getting punked by Green from GS.

"prove a point"...what point does RW need to prove? That he could get OKC to playoffs and go out in 5? I would think he would welcome help...if you're saying the help is there, but ignored...Donovan needs to grow a pair.

 

[Mebert]

Admittedly I don't watch enough reg season NBA to know what the OKC roster is capable of, but every playoff series I've watched over the years, it seemed like KD/RW and rest...now it looked like RW and rest. The last time I saw Adams in a meaningful series he was getting punked by Green from GS.

"prove a point"...what point does RW need to prove? That he could get OKC to playoffs and go out in 5? I would think he would welcome help...if you're saying the help is there, but ignored...Donovan needs to grow a pair.

For the prove a point Westbrook has been in a "I never needed Durant" mood all year. It is what has taking his one man show attitude to new and embarrassing levels.

Thunder do not have the most talent out there, but it only appears to be as bad as it is because of Westbrook.

Adams did get destroyed by Green, but most centers look bad when going against Green, he shuts down a lot of people like that.

 

[trojanfan12]

"prove a point"...what point does RW need to prove? That he could get OKC to playoffs and go out in 5? I would think he would welcome help...if you're saying the help is there, but ignored...Donovan needs to grow a pair.

Some guys have to learn the hard way that they can't do it by themselves. MJ and Kobe were like this. MJ came in to the league and tore everyone up and got the Bulls to the playoffs. But his teams didn't start winning titles until Pippen emerged as a great player and he had a coach that could convince him to trust his teammates.

Same thing happened with Kobe after Shaq left. Interestingly, it was the same coach that convinced both MJ and Kobe to trust their teammates.

Maybe the Thunder should hire Phil? lol

 

[ATL96Steeler]

For the prove a point Westbrook has been in a "I never needed Durant" mood all year. It is what has taking his one man show attitude to new and embarrassing levels.

Thunder do not have the most talent out there, but it only appears to be as bad as it is because of Westbrook.

Adams did get destroyed by Green, but most centers look bad when going against Green, he shuts down a lot of people like that.

I can see that on RW...obviously there was a bigger rift there between him and KD that maybe we didn't know about until KD bolted.

I guess I look at it like this...I can buy he was trying to prove something, but he really seems like he wants to win, he's not just a scorer, he will rebound, he will defend, and he will assist. I would have to imagine that his '16 effort will get old pretty quick.

Reminds me of Jordan's early years...I remember the 63 vs BOS in the playoff (of course they loss) and some people thought he was too selfish...got some help around help and we saw what happened.

Now, I'm not putting RW in that category, but I think he and Donovan felt he had to be the show for them to amount to anything. At the same time they have to know he can't sustain that.

 

[Mebert]

I can see that on RW...obviously there was a bigger rift there between him and KD that maybe we didn't know about until KD bolted.

I guess I look at it like this...I can buy he was trying to prove something, but he really seems like he wants to win, he's not just a scorer, he will rebound, he will defend, and he will assist. I would have to imagine that his '16 effort will get old pretty quick.

Reminds me of Jordan's early years...I remember the 63 vs BOS in the playoff (of course they loss) and some people thought he was too selfish...got some help around help and we saw what happened.

Now, I'm not putting RW in that category, but I think he and Donovan felt he had to be the show for them to amount to anything. At the same time they have to know he can't sustain that.

I think that if the coach had reeled him in a bit it would have done wonders for the Thunder. They had the lead a lot going into the 4th, but Westbrook would run out of gas and still refuse to give up the ball.

The shot chart for game 5 is not up yet, but in the first 4 games Westbrook took 43% of all the 4th quarter shots and hit 28%. I can appreciate why he was so tired, but the rest of the team shot 36%, not good either, but still a sizable advantage. At a certain point you have to give it up as you are hurting your team.

Especially if he hits McDermot a bit more, he hit 53% downtown this series because they did not bother to guard him. Westbrook keeps feeding him eventually the D has to adjust and then Westbrook gets easier shots. The whole game becomes easier when the Rockets have to worry about a pass out of a triple team.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Some guys have to learn the hard way that they can't do it by themselves. MJ and Kobe were like this. MJ came in to the league and tore everyone up and got the Bulls to the playoffs. But his teams didn't start winning titles until Pippen emerged as a great player and he had a coach that could convince him to trust his teammates.

Same thing happened with Kobe after Shaq left. Interestingly, it was the same coach that convinced both MJ and Kobe to trust their teammates.

Maybe the Thunder should hire Phil? lol

Good point. I think RW's situation would be more like Kobe's when Shaq left or was forced out except Idt KD was forced out. Westbrook got the stage to himself and made all the headlines and home in 5 games...for a guy that has played in the conference finals and the championship finals...he can't be happy with being THE guy going home in the 1st round n 5 games.

 

[trojanfan12]

Good point. I think RW's situation would be more like Kobe's when Shaq left or was forced out except Idt KD was forced out. Westbrook got the stage to himself and made all the headlines and home in 5 games...for a guy that has played in the conference finals and the championship finals...he can't be happy with being THE guy going home in the 1st round n 5 games.

Yeah, the situations are very similar since both Kobe and Russ played with great players before "going it alone."

Ftr, if Shaq was forced out, he forced himself out by demanding more money than Dr. Buss was going to pay a guy who was starting to decline and was too lazy to stay in shape or even work on any aspect of his game in the off season.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I think that if the coach had reeled him in a bit it would have done wonders for the Thunder. They had the lead a lot going into the 4th, but Westbrook would run out of gas and still refuse to give up the ball.

The shot chart for game 5 is not up yet, but in the first 4 games Westbrook took 43% of all the 4th quarter shots and hit 28%. I can appreciate why he was so tired, but the rest of the team shot 36%, not good either, but still a sizable advantage. At a certain point you have to give it up as you are hurting your team.

Especially if he hits McDermot a bit more, he hit 53% downtown this series because they did not bother to guard him. Westbrook keeps feeding him eventually the D has to adjust and then Westbrook gets easier shots. The whole game becomes easier when the Rockets have to worry about a pass out of a triple team.

I agree...imo HOU has pretty much the same issues with Da Beard, but they were a little deeper than OKC.

I guess my overall point...maybe they get another game if RW plays it smarter, but what I saw in this series, they don't have enough to win a series in the playoffs.

 

[Mebert]

I agree...imo HOU has pretty much the same issues with Da Beard, but they were a little deeper than OKC.

I guess my overall point...maybe they get another game if RW plays it smarter, but what I saw in this series, they don't have enough to win a series in the playoffs.

I agree with that. Rockets 6th man would have been the 2nd best player on the Thunder

 

[trojanfan12]

Good point. I think RW's situation would be more like Kobe's when Shaq left or was forced out except Idt KD was forced out. Westbrook got the stage to himself and made all the headlines and home in 5 games...for a guy that has played in the conference finals and the championship finals...he can't be happy with being THE guy going home in the 1st round n 5 games.

Yeah, and to be fair to Russ, he may already know that, but was just doing what he had to do for them to win. We assume that he was happy to try and do it himself because that's what he would typically do late in close games when he had KD.

Either way, hopefully for him and the Thunder, he knows he needs help. Figuring that out worked for Kobe, hopefully it will work for Russ too. I really like the guy and the way he plays. He attacks the rim like it did something to piss him off.

 

[StanMarsh51]

IMO, RW is a scoring PG in the mold of AI...I'm sure he would not want to post 42 triple dbls, make the playoffs and get bounced in 5 games. Bottom line he needs a better cast around him.

.

It's hard to shit on the supporting cast however when they're shooting better than him....

-Westbrook shot 42.5% during the regular season while the rest of his team shot 46.2%
-Westbrook shot 38.8% during the playoffs while the rest of his team shot 47%

With those numbers, Westbrook's teammates have shown that they're proficient...they're just not getting opportunities to shoot when Westbrook has more than 2x as many shots as the team's 2nd most frequent shooter.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Yeah, and to be fair to Russ, he may already know that, but was just doing what he had to do for them to win. We assume that he was happy to try and do it himself because that's what he would typically do late in close games when he had KD.

Either way, hopefully for him and the Thunder, he knows he needs help. Figuring that out worked for Kobe, hopefully it will work for Russ too. I really like the guy and the way he plays. He attacks the rim like it did something to piss him off.

I'm a big fan of his talent...really haven't seen a PG with his type skills...a bigger AI...but much like AI, his game is not conducive to winning titles.

As you mentioned, MJ and Kobe figured it out...kind of a shame that we never got to see OKC with RW, KD and Harden run it's course before they broke up.

Maybe Shaq did force himself out with the money part, but I felt that team could've won at least 2 more titles...what did Kobe less Shaq get?...1 more I think.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

It's hard to shit on the supporting cast however when they're shooting better than him....

-Westbrook shot 42.5% during the regular season while the rest of his team shot 46.2%
-Westbrook shot 38.8% during the playoffs while the rest of his team shot 47%

With those numbers, Westbrook's teammates have shown that they're proficient...they're just not getting opportunities to shoot when Westbrook has more than 2x as many shots as the team's 2nd most frequent shooter.

The only issue with your argument is RW also factored in the cast points with his assists, particularly Adams who really skews that shooting % up.

I'm with you on the one man show theme, but if you take RW off that team and replace him with a talented but more distributor friendly PG (say a Tony Parker) ...I don't think they even sniff the playoffs.

 

[Ickey Shuffle]

It's hard to shit on the supporting cast however when they're shooting better than him....

-Westbrook shot 42.5% during the regular season while the rest of his team shot 46.2%
-Westbrook shot 38.8% during the playoffs while the rest of his team shot 47%

With those numbers, Westbrook's teammates have shown that they're proficient...they're just not getting opportunities to shoot when Westbrook has more than 2x as many shots as the team's 2nd most frequent shooter.

Thank you. It's like with the way ppl are talking, Westbrook has wheelchair handicaps as teammates. Everyone on the Thunder has a role. Westbrook is just out there only caring about himself. It's not about him. It's about the team. I can understand why Durant left in the first place to be honest. That shit is annoying.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm a big fan of his talent...really haven't seen a PG with his type skills...a bigger AI...but much like AI, his game is not conducive to winning titles.

As you mentioned, MJ and Kobe figured it out...kind of a shame that we never got to see OKC with RW, KD and Harden run it's course before they broke up.

Maybe Shaq did force himself out with the money part, but I felt that team could've won at least 2 more titles...what did Kobe less Shaq get?...1 more I think.

Yeah, Shaq has said that if he had it to do over again, he'd have worked things out in LA. He sealed his fate when he dunked during a pre-season game, looked at Dr. Buss and yelled "You gonna pay me now?"

After Shaq left, the Lakers made 3 more finals and won 2 more titles. So, Kobe less Shaq did well and showed that Dr. Buss paid the right guy. But I do agree that if Shaq stays, they likely get at least 2, maybe 3 more titles together.

 

[Ickey Shuffle]

I'm with you on the one man show theme, but if you take RW off that team and replace him with a talented but more distributor friendly PG (say a Tony Parker) ...I don't think they even sniff the playoffs.

That's a bad replacement. Exchange Westbrook with Wall and I guarantee you they still be in the playoffs. And Wall actually plays defense too.

 

[StanMarsh51]

The only issue with your argument is RW also factored in the cast points with his assists, particularly Adams who really skews that shooting % up.

I'd argue though that when he's passing the ball, he's not very often giving his teammates great looks/shots (with many of the passes being beyond the 3pt line).

It's not like a Lebron where he's often giving his teammates easier shots at the basket when he passes.


Here's a vid from his 22 assist game back in December, which was the first one that popped up on my search...his teammates had to work for many of those shots which gave Westbrook an assist (not many wide open easy shots).

 

[trojanfan12]

It's hard to shit on the supporting cast however when they're shooting better than him....

-Westbrook shot 42.5% during the regular season while the rest of his team shot 46.2%
-Westbrook shot 38.8% during the playoffs while the rest of his team shot 47%

With those numbers, Westbrook's teammates have shown that they're proficient...they're just not getting opportunities to shoot when Westbrook has more than 2x as many shots as the team's 2nd most frequent shooter.

Yes and no. You also have to factor in how many of the shots they get are a direct result of the defense focusing on Westbrook. When a defense is geared towards stopping 1 guy, it's going to lead to better looks for everyone else on the floor.

If you look at the Thunder's +/- with and without Westbrook in the game, the difference is pretty remarkable and speaks to how important he is to their success.

 

[Ickey Shuffle]

That's a bad replacement. Exchange Westbrook with Wall and I guarantee you they still be in the playoffs. And Wall actually plays defense too.

On second thought, Wall can do a lot better himself in that department. But at least he tries to be committed on that side of the ball.