2013 Penguins

[JustAsking]

Here goes my thoughts so far after the first 4 games (2-2).

The Penguins magic number is 3. If they don't score 3 goals, they will not win many games. They just are not built for 2-1 games, even though head coach DB stressed winning 'shut-out' games. The Penguins talent (and money) is quickness (speed and counter attacks)... management even stresses their defenseman have a good first pass over good defensive zone coverage (at least I never heard of GM or HC talk about defensive prospects in that regards, it's always, quick transition). Coupled with, Sid, Geno, and Neal... the Penguins are built for offense and goals, goals, goals... not defense, defense, defense... not for shut-outs, not for 2-1 games. The Penguins are built to out score their opponent, like the Patriots, or Manning teams.. or the Steelers. The Steelers money is in QB and speedy WRs, quick transition. Steelers can't win games 17-14... they are not built for the grind-it-out game... and neither are the Penguins, both teams should be high scoring teams, based on talent in money (I'm not agreeing with the philosphy, for the record).

 

[JustAsking]

I'm not going to mention all the rust that is still on the gears of what is the Penguin Machine... (ie, fanned shots, bad passes, teammates skating into each other)

Starting with the top line:

Kunitz-Sid-Dupper. Kunitz is being his pesty self (learning new boarding rules), Sid is playing like a good hockey player, but not a great hockey player, and Dupper, will his age ever catch up to his legs, man can still fly. This line needs to generate more scoring chances, they have the speed for quick transition, I'm just seeing lack of production.

Neal-Malkin-???
Neal and Malkin picked up were they left off. For Neal that is a good thing, for Geno, he needs to become humbled a little, control his emotions, and not expect things, or get angry when things don't go his way. Geno is also turning the puck over in the Pens zone too much (one time a game is too much). Tangradi is NOT fast enough for this team, period. I also like TK on the 3rd line.. So I'm not sure about the other winger, Bennett impressed me (personally, Bennett on Sid and Kunitz on Malkin line, but Tangradi would be lost to waivers (or lovejoy or burtuzzo).

Cooke-Sutter-TK
Cooke is playing with more of an edge than he did last year. Suuter is finding his way, what I like abut him is he seems to find open ice in the offensive zone, he's creating chances, just not finished yet (as long as he continues to work hard and put himself in scoring position, the puck will begin to find the back of the net. TK, I have always been a fan of TK, even when he misses the net.

Glass-Vitale/Jeffery-Adams
Jeffery just doesn't seem to ever fit in with the Penguins. Vitale is 4th liner, much better suited than Jeffery. Glass provides some toughness and Adams a vetern reason and experience... I don't know... individually they are all fine hockey players... but where is the size?

Overall... the Penguins fowards are high on talent and speed, but low on size. Again, the Penguins are built for a quick transition game. No more big bodies to cycle and grind-it-out. Gone are the Rupps, Malones, Staals. 6'4'' 220 some lb forwards that can impose their phyiscal will on defenders. Replaced with Dupuis, Vitale, Glass, Sutter, Kunitz, TK. the Penguins lacking size upfront hinders their ability to play in their attacking zone.

The Penguins forwards are a walking... skating contradiction... management preaches grind it out wear the opponents down style of hockey, but what management has built is a fast paced, quick transition team, but if your game plan revolves around cycling and forechecking, it will lead to out of position players and fatigue.

Lets Go Pens

 

[JustAsking]

I don't understand why Chris Kunitz is gettin gso much grieve. He is playing the game he needs to play. He needs to be pressure, finish the body, do the dirty work... HOWEVER, what he is expected to do is be a goal scoring winger, ala Neal... he is not. With that said, he is totally being mis-used. The 2nd line needs that quick, pesky, do the dirty work, taking on more than one defender in the corner freeing up Neal or Malkin. The Penguins need to find a 'finisher' for Sids line. Dupuis is much like Bob Errey, 'just' a hockey player, plain and simple... put him anywhere, any situation, and he'll perform, at both ends of ice.

Tangradi is causing confusion with the front office (or a trade has to be coming). He is big, talented and young... the Penguins need him to work out, I don't think they want to give up on the... 23yr old.... but he is not performing. Moving him to the 4th line doesn't solve the problem of a finisher on the top 2 lines, furthermore, he's not a 4th liner (not mean enough). He has to sit, and Jeffery has to be given a shot on the top 2 lines now. If not a trade has to happen. For one main reason... the penguins are at roster limit, any player movement (recalling Bennett) would require a player to pass through waivers... ah, just had a thought, Despres could be sent down...

OK, so, now, the Pens should do one of two things in the immediate future (Nisky injury puts a small wrinkle in the plan, so does Bennett's I suppose)

1.) Sit Trangradi and try Jeffery at wing on one of the 1st two lines (again, IMO Kunitz on the 2nd line makes more sense)
2.) Send Despres to WBS and recall Bennett and try him on one of 1st two lines.

Lovejoy is under rated as well. I feel his hockey IQ is quite high, maybe he stepped on DB kids toes and that's why coach doesn't play him much... he's takes too much unwarrented heat as well.

Hockey IQ... for as much talent Geno has, he lacks just a little on the IQ said to make him that much better... recongize that you have a defenseman providing the center drive on a the play and get the puck on goal or below the goal line at least, not to space at the blueline... I remember him coming into the league and me talking to my brother about him, my brother saying in the long run Geno will be better than Sid, I kept saying his intelligence for the game situations is not as high as Sid, and that will 'make' sid the better player (I'm not saying geno is hockey dumb, just not as high as others)... geno may have more physical abilities than Sid, but Sid got the bigger hockey brain (coupled with boat laods of talent)

(my father-in-law is here and I'm trying to take up as much time as possible...)

 

[evolver115]

Lots of good thoughts in here, JA. Glad to see you back on the board.

I just wanted to quickly comment on your thoughts about Kunitz.... It seems to me that Kunitz isn't ready to compete now that the season has begun. He looks sloppy with the puck. He isn't making smart decisions with his passes. He is making mistakes when defending the opponent, and about the only thing of value he is bringing to the table at the moment is an element of physicality.

I suppose you could chalk all of these problems up to just a lack of a normal training camp. I'm sure that plays a major part in his slow start to the season. At the same time, it does make me wonder how dedicated he was to keeping himself in shape, and his skill set sharp during the lockout.

Kunitz is paid to the tune of the fourth highest earning forward on the team below Malkin, Crosby and Neal. For the amount of compensation he is receiving, I expect more out of his production. It doesn't have to be production that shows up on the score sheet, but his level of effort and effectiveness needs to be higher.

 

[thedddd]

Yeah scratching Despres does him no good. If he isn't playing every game then send him down to WBS to play.

Tangradi I think just needs to realize he will never be a top 6 and learn to play a good grinding role.
Jeffrey is not a 4th line center but just like Letestu he is not a fit for a top 6 role in Pittsburgh his value might come on another team?

Kennedy yeah he is fun to watch and shoots a ton but I don't think he is a good fit for Malkin/Neal he needs to stay with Cooke and Sutter.

I would love to see this line combo one game to see how it works:
Crosby-Dupuis-Kunitz
Malkin-Neal-Jeffrey
Sutter-Cooke-Kennedy
Vitale-Glass-Tangradi and scratch Adams. I am not saying scratch Adams all the time he is valuable to the team but lets give Jeffrey and Tangradi more minutes to truly see what they do.

BTW...Good to see you back. Do you still see Emu? They were around last year and haven't seen them since.

 

[thedddd]

As for Kunitz he is very streaky and if I remember late last year took a lot of dumb penalties. For Crosby's sake he needs to find the back of the net.

Or like stated truly give Bennett a chance with Crosby and let Kunitz go with again with Neal/Malkin.

 

[JustAsking]

Thanks folk, glad hockey is back, um, glad the NHL is back, hockey never went anywhere...

Admittedly so, I have not paid that much attention to Kunitz and I will tonight. Regardless of his play this season, I still think he is counted on as being a goal scoring winger, which he is not, he's no dud up front and needs to to score, but his skills are pressure and taking the body, engaging more than one defender along the boards... creating space. But like I said I cant speak one way or the other regarding his actual play because I have not been focusing on him.

Watch Tangradi today, if he plays, I swear the kid is so AFRAID to do anything wrong that his ability to make decisions is gone. He does what the coaches tell him to do in fear if he doesn't he will make a mistake. GAme situations (and decisions that come with different game situations) appear not to exist in his mind right now... he's a robot...

He has zero confidence right now... I know he failed to get the puck in deep that one time and it resulted in a goal.. I'm sure he got a talking to and since then robot tangradi has appeared... I'm sure the kid knew he should've got the puck in deep, what management should have done was tell him not to worry about it and use his skills that got him here in the first place, instead, it appears they took him back to hockey 101, hockey boot camp... somehow he feels like he is beginning all over again... like he has no hockey IQ at all..

And one more time, Lovejoy needs more icetime.... on the Pens or another team... the kid got skills, confidence, and smarts... IMO. Given the proper ice time and situational play opportunities, I'm telling you, he'll develop into a top 4, late bloomer, but he will.

Lets Go Pens.

(PS got my Kings Stanley Cup ring last night... I got my picture with the cup this year, being a kings ticket member ... I was the only person there without Kings stuff on, I of course roll in with my Pens stuff.)

 

[element1286]

Lovejoy is under rated as well. I feel his hockey IQ is quite high, maybe he stepped on DB kids toes and that's why coach doesn't play him much... he's takes too much unwarrented heat as well.

Interesting, I go back and forth on Lovejoy. He has confidence and is aggressive, which I like, but he also forgets the basics too often, IMO. Which is why he doesn't get ice time often.

IMO, Despres should be the guy getting more ice time. He makes mistakes too, but the upside is there, and there are flashes often enough to justify his play.

 

[JustAsking]

Quick clarification: Lovejoy ,IMO, could be a #4 (not a 1-2-3, but a number 4)...
Despres, needs to play, period.. here or in WBS, he just needs ice time to mature.

For as much as engelland is needed (the only 'fighter' we have) he is having a horrible time with the puck... I don't remember him like this last year... hopefully it's just rust... but he has me concerned right now.

Letang, is he slightly overrated? The dude is a horrible playmaker, passer... esp on the PP... great recovery speed, but we shouldn't have to depend on htat every game..

OK, Sid... Geno, the season has started. I was oringially concered with lack of secondary scoring... but that is now a secondary (ha) concern to primary scoring.

Queston: When was the last time a player finished his career on a suspension? When was a last time a player finished his time with with a team on a suspension? I've been watching hockey for 30 yrs, and I don't recall any (they exist that;s for sure)... BUT... under the Shero Byslma reign... TWO players... TWO... Goddard and Asham... that says something about the structure of the team if you ask me... Shero has me concerned as well...

 

[JustAsking]

About Sid:

He is a big concern for me as well right now... regardless if people like ot admit or not, Sid's game is more a grinder game than a skill game... he out works his opponents and creates space for himself... compared to geno (and many larger players) who have better phyiscal abilties, they can simply out muslce players... so, my concern is, Sid is not playing his grinding game at all and my fear is he will never regain that confidence to go muck it up...

That hit from behind he took yesterday cna be a good thing or a nad thing.. .perhaps he sees now he can take a hit or he became more worried because no call was made.

I don't know... just by watching him play, he's not engaging as much as he once did, he's not carrying the puck as much as he once did (cross ice passes).... and... that's all.

 

[thedddd]

Quick clarification: Lovejoy ,IMO, could be a #4 (not a 1-2-3, but a number 4)...
Despres, needs to play, period.. here or in WBS, he just needs ice time to mature.

For as much as engelland is needed (the only 'fighter' we have) he is having a horrible time with the puck... I don't remember him like this last year... hopefully it's just rust... but he has me concerned right now.

Letang, is he slightly overrated? The dude is a horrible playmaker, passer... esp on the PP... great recovery speed, but we shouldn't have to depend on htat every game..

OK, Sid... Geno, the season has started. I was oringially concered with lack of secondary scoring... but that is now a secondary (ha) concern to primary scoring.

Queston: When was the last time a player finished his career on a suspension? When was a last time a player finished his time with with a team on a suspension? I've been watching hockey for 30 yrs, and I don't recall any (they exist that;s for sure)... BUT... under the Shero Byslma reign... TWO players... TWO... Goddard and Asham... that says something about the structure of the team if you ask me... Shero has me concerned as well...

I think McSorley ended his NHL career suspended with that stick swinging incident.

I agree Despres needs to play, and Engelland I think he played in Norway during the lock out so he should be less rusty than some. Unfortunately I think he is being exposed for not really being a great skater right now. He really is no more than a #6 or #7.

 

[JustAsking]

Is Ray Shero a problem? He provides DB the players, and the players he is providing are a different breed than the Pens had in 08-09... and we are not winning, in the playoffs.

I think it's safe to assume hockey is officated differently during regualr season and playoffs. Regular season the subtle interfernces and rubs to the boards are called, playoffs they are not... which is why such guys as Hal Gill are coveted at trade deadlines, but not so much during summer FAs... you want him on your team why defenseman can play a more clutch and pin game....

So, yea, 1 pt from Eastern Conference Champ, big deal, an 8 seed won the cup. Make the playoffs is the key and then play playoff hockey.

The Penguins (Ray Shero) has lost the likes of Hal Gill, Rob Scuderi, Mark Eaton. Scuderi was important to the kings run last year, I wonder why... Shero has replaced the defensive defenseman with Paul Martin, Matt Niskanen, (gone is Michalek) and a whole bunch of other players (Engelland, Lovejoy, Burtuzzo, Despres). Sheros's doomsday approach of stock piling speedy, under sized, offensive defenseman also fits into the pattern of building President Trophy contenders year after year.

If the Kings are out of the playoff picture, do the Pens pursue Scuderi? Eaton, I know is back in the organization... but he was not nearly as important as Gill or Scuds was for the Pens....

If Bortuzzo develops into a Gill or Scuds that wouldbe ideal, and the way he was boxing out clarkson in front of MAF so he could see pucks, shows he has the strenght and willingness to muck it up.

A contingent, this year there seems to be an even greater emphasis on calling those little interfence plays... we'll see if it carries over into the playoffsr... if it does, then the Pens better get their PP clicking.

 

[evolver115]

Kunitz looked like a completely different player today. He was dangerous with the puck, and great on the forecheck pretty much throughout the last two games. Amazing what a couple weeks of practice have done for his recent success.

 

[element1286]

Seeing the way Bortuzzo and Despres have played, I can't see any rationale for Lovejoy getting back in the lineup ahead of them, sans injury.

Also, Tanner Glass is worthless. And the fourth line is an abomination right now, no zone time, rarely any pressure. They dump it in, fail to get the puck, and it's an easy out for the other team.

But other than that, the team has done a complete 180, although I'm still worried that they haven't actually learned anything per defensive responsibility/system improvement, but are just riding a hot streak from the top lines.

 

[JustAsking]

Agree.. Lovejoy does not have a chance... what happens when Nisky comes back... Bortuzzo's game is more of what the Pens are lacking, and Despres is still prone to mistakes wth the puck (so is everyone, I understand that)... but Nisky will play. It comes down to Bort, Despres, Lovejoy and Engelland (who has been awful, but is needed in the line-up). One plays. One is the 7th. Add in DJ, Tangradi and Boychuck (he's in for a bit).. and the Pens find themselve in a waiver mess, unless a trade... or SEND DEPRES BACK TO THE AHL. He does not have to clear waivers, he'll eat a boat load of ice time in all game situations, and he'll play every night.

Post-Nisky:
Martin/Orpik
Letang/Nisky
Bort/Engelland
Lovejoy

that's the easiest... or try and trade lovejoy or another defenseman (assuming lovejoy trade or waiver loss)....
Martin/Orpik
Letang/Depres
Nisky/Bort-Engo

Ok... 4th line... awful... they have not scored a goal yet. Adams 0 goals, Glass pts, Vitale 0 goals... add in Tangradi and DJ... not sure how many PP they have generated... on the PK they may perform well... but not as a 4th line unit needing to score every now and again.

James Neal leads the team with -4... what? how he back checks?... surprising I know... that is one misleading stat.

All and all.. with Nisky coming back and the addition of Boychuk... these next 2 weeks will prove to be exciting in regards to player personnel... waiver loss, minor to big trades, or sending Despres to the AHL.

 

[element1286]

Good question, I like your second defensive alignment better. And I think they should trade Lovejoy at this point.

Yea, I understand they won't score many goals, but they aren't even 'Hard to play against' as Ray Shero would say. I don't know if it is just a bad start, but I was hoping Vitale would be Max Talbot reincarnate a la the forecheck, but he has been dreadful.

Agreed about the next two weeks, this is the time when a good GM should thrive, and manage his resources accordingly. He blew the Brian Strait situation hopefully he doesn't mess up the Tangradi/Jeffery/Boychuk/Bortuzzo situation.

 

[thedddd]

I agree the second grouping is much better.

Neal's -4 is misleading due to the fact he does play less than Malkin/Crosby and the fact he is on the PP when a SH goal is given up it is a minus. So there is a lot involved that would coincide with that.

I have a feeling Shero will make it right like pulling in Boychuk after the loss of Strait. It is a shame Tangradi will be wasted but not sure his talents will ever be NHL calibre. Because he has the size to be a good 4th line grinder, since we all know he has no hands to play a top 6 role.

As for that current 4th line it is a major letdown I thought those 3 together would look good but they look small and really don't add much.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

Any of you guys see this? Pretty interesting...

Penguins and Europeans Blogging Thesis | February | 2013 Archives

 

[JustAsking]

That's funny... every post I created above I was going to point out the Pens only have Malkin and Vokoun on the roster that are non-NAs... I was SO surprised when GM took Maata last year... Seriously, I count how many Euro we have on the team every year, because, well, hey, it's a sport, I can be prejudice.. I don't like Europeans on the Penguins... unless, perhaps they came up in the JR leagues... like the Swedes seem to do. And Ollie Maata.

ON trade discussions with my brother... I tell him ALL the time, I would rather take a Shoan Doan over an OVie any day of the week to help me win THE CUP... the cup... I would rather have a hungry north american (aging vet that never won the cup) over some super skilled young euro when making a run for the cup...

I was going to start a thread on the main board the other day asking how many Euro's folks have on there team.. but I didn't think it would catch on...

But it's funny there is a blog about this...

 

[JustAsking]

From what I gather... you need some Euro influence... teams that are strictly NA built don't seem to win the Cup... but having too many Euro's won't help win the cup.

From the Pens perspective... during 90-93, the Pens went from 0-3-4-5 euros on the team. Won the cup with 3 and 4, best team with 5.... however, skipping ahead to when the Pens had over 9 euros, a stretch between 97-03 (9 up to 19), when the Pens were one of the worst teams in the league...and you'll (no one specific) will understand my logic of rather having NAs than Euros on my team...

Interesting read... not fully finished with it yet...