Series Thread: 3) Houston Rockets vs 6) OKC Thunder

[ATL96Steeler]

Yeah, Shaq has said that if he had it to do over again, he'd have worked things out in LA. He sealed his fate when he dunked during a pre-season game, looked at Dr. Buss and yelled "You gonna pay me now?"

After Shaq left, the Lakers made 3 more finals and won 2 more titles. So, Kobe less Shaq did well and showed that Dr. Buss paid the right guy. But I do agree that if Shaq stays, they likely get at least 2, maybe 3 more titles together.

It was two...I stand corrected. In the end it did work out w/o Shaq, but no question Kobe was always the one the choose if it came down to one or the other.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

That's a bad replacement. Exchange Westbrook with Wall and I guarantee you they still be in the playoffs. And Wall actually plays defense too.

Agree Wall is more comparable.

Guarantee? I hear ya, that's strong.

No Beal on OKC though...idk about that.

 

[tlance]

The only issue with your argument is RW also factored in the cast points with his assists, particularly Adams who really skews that shooting % up.

I'm with you on the one man show theme, but if you take RW off that team and replace him with a talented but more distributor friendly PG (say a Tony Parker) ...I don't think they even sniff the playoffs.

Westbrook missed 103 shots over 5 games.

Yes, he draws a ton of attention, but he needs to distribute more. His scoring efficiency is awful. Blame him, blame the help, I don't really care. He will never win in the playoffs missing 20+ Shots a game. That much is fact.

 

[bksballer89]

Westbrook missed 103 shots over 5 games.

Yes, he draws a ton of attention, but he needs to distribute more. His scoring efficiency is awful. Blame him, blame the help, I don't really care. He will never win in the playoffs missing 20+ Shots a game. That much is fact.

Highly doubt he is missing 20+ shots a game if he was surrounded with better offensive talent.

In the 4th quarter of an elimination game, he was playing with Roberson, Adams, & Grants. 3 players who struggles on offense.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Westbrook missed 103 shots over 5 games.

Yes, he draws a ton of attention, but he needs to distribute more. His scoring efficiency is awful. Blame him, blame the help, I don't really care. He will never win in the playoffs missing 20+ Shots a game. That much is fact.

Well, this isn't anything new...we saw it with Jordan before they developed a team around him and got a coach that got him to trust them...same with Kobe post Shaq.

I know it sounds like I'm defending RW and to a degree I am because I don't think his cast is very good, but you're preaching to the choir sir with that comment in bold. Agree 100%.

 

[CitySushi]

Highly doubt he is missing 20+ shots a game if he was surrounded with better offensive talent.

In the 4th quarter of an elimination game, he was playing with Roberson, Adams, & Grants. 3 players who struggles on offense.

Some blame should fall on Billy D here. Granted there weren't a lot of options on the bench, but in a game you're struggling to score points, you need to put some shooters on the court. Tell me McBuckets isn't a better option out there than Grant, with Westbrook having the ball.

 

[DorianRo]

ROFLMAO Are the Blunder really offering Westbrook a 200-300 million bucks. Wow.. Lets see the guy win something as lead dog first before throwing that kind of money at him. Holy shit. Thats ludicrous. Hes a great player but he still couldn't even win a 'ship with Durant and Harden lets not forget and he's still criticized with his inability to get other teammates involved in the game

 

[DorianRo]

Yeah, Shaq has said that if he had it to do over again, he'd have worked things out in LA. He sealed his fate when he dunked during a pre-season game, looked at Dr. Buss and yelled "You gonna pay me now?"

After Shaq left, the Lakers made 3 more finals and won 2 more titles. So, Kobe less Shaq did well and showed that Dr. Buss paid the right guy. But I do agree that if Shaq stays, they likely get at least 2, maybe 3 more titles together.

Shaq made the best decisions. KoME was whining for a trade so they had to bring in other All star/HOF'er BIGs. Kobe's head was getting too big by that point as the 2004 finals showed. It was brick after brick and icing everyone out of the offense. And Shaq got a championship out of it still too. Lakers were lucky win 2 ships. They should have lost in 2010

 

[Ickey Shuffle]

That 2012 Thunder team definitely should've been NBA champs IMO. Harden was the one who dropped the ball in the Finals big time.

 

[tlance]

ROFLMAO Are the Blunder really offering Westbrook a 200-300 million bucks. Wow.. Lets see the guy win something as lead dog first before throwing that kind of money at him. Holy shit. Thats ludicrous. Hes a great player but he still couldn't even win a 'ship with Durant and Harden lets not forget and he's still criticized with his inability to get other teammates involved in the game

What other option do they have?

If they don't pay him the supermax, he will leave. As much as I love to criticize Russ and calm down his hype men, the Thunder would be starting from scratch without Russ. It isn't an option not to pay him, especially after he said he wanted to stay in OKC.

 

[tlance]

That 2012 Thunder team definitely should've been NBA champs IMO. Harden was the one who dropped the ball in the Finals big time.

Honestly, I place more blame on Brooks.

Even when playing well, Harden was basically splitting minutes with near 40 year old Derek Fisher. Ibaka was splitting minutes with a washed up and inneffective Kendrick Perkins, despite the fact that the Heat had zero low post threats.

Brooks should have tweaked his rotations to jump start Harden. He also should have benched Perkins in hat matchup.

 

[Wishbone]

Allow me to end this thread:


Westbrook +/-


Game 2 (loss): +11
Game 4 (loss): +14
Game 5 (loss): +12


The Thunder lost these three games by a combined 14 point s. They were +37 with Westbrook on the floor during these games and -51 without him.

 

[Sir Robin Of Camelot]

Addendum... the $100,000 Walk and Talk.

 

[trojanfan12]

Shaq made the best decisions. KoME was whining for a trade so they had to bring in other All star/HOF'er BIGs. Kobe's head was getting too big by that point as the 2004 finals showed. It was brick after brick and icing everyone out of the offense.

You literally couldn't possibly be more wrong if you tried. Shaq himself has said that the reason he left the Lakers had nothing to do with Kobe and everything to do with money. He has also said that he should have listened to Kobe about working out and staying in shape in the off-season and that if he had wanted to stay, he and Kobe would have been able to work things out.

The facts are, Shaq and Kobe were both due for new contracts and Dr. Buss wasn't going to give a max deal to a 32 year old who who was starting to decline as a player, was notorious for being lazy in the off-season and using training camp to get in shape or put off necessary surgery until the following training camp because he "got hurt on company time" and was "going to heal on company time." Especially when he had a younger guy who spent all off-season staying in shape and working on his game.

Additionally, while Shaq did get one more title, Kobe got 2 more and stayed productive much farther into his career than Shaq did into his.

I'm not saying there was no Shaq/Kobe feud or that Kobe wasn't an asshole, there was and he is, but those were not the reasons Shaq left.

 

[trojanfan12]

Lakers were lucky win 2 ships. They should have lost in 2010

Oh, and lmao at this. They won in 2010, so that tells me they should have done exactly what they did...won the title.

 

[DorianRo]

You literally couldn't possibly be more wrong if you tried. Shaq himself has said that the reason he left the Lakers had nothing to do with Kobe and everything to do with money. He has also said that he should have listened to Kobe about working out and staying in shape in the off-season and that if he had wanted to stay, he and Kobe would have been able to work things out.

The facts are, Shaq and Kobe were both due for new contracts and Dr. Buss wasn't going to give a max deal to a 32 year old who who was starting to decline as a player, was notorious for being lazy in the off-season and using training camp to get in shape or put off necessary surgery until the following training camp because he "got hurt on company time" and was "going to heal on company time." Especially when he had a younger guy who spent all off-season staying in shape and working on his game.

Additionally, while Shaq did get one more title, Kobe got 2 more and stayed productive much farther into his career than Shaq did into his.

I'm not saying there was no Shaq/Kobe feud or that Kobe wasn't an asshole, there was and he is, but those were not the reasons Shaq left.

Kobe played a part in it. He wanted the Lakers to be HIS Team because he was sick of playing piggyback to Shaq. Look no further than the 2004 Finals with KoME INCESSANT chucking and icing every out. Stupid Stupid egomaniacal move there when you got the most dominant big man ever down low. Even Phil at the time was calling KoME "Uncoachable".

As far as Shaq wanting more money.. Why not? He took them to THREE straight finals and championships? They give guys more today for leading their team NOWHERE much less doing the close to impossible. And Shaq still had a good 2-3 years of tail prime ball left.


And Im sure KoMe had something to do behind the scenes with Buss in not giving Shaq the money he wants.

But like I said.. Thats a dumb move letting Shaq go when he still has a few years of prime Ball left. Hell look at his level in 2005 in MIA. Should have won MVP that year.

This the equivalent of throwing NBA championships into the garbage and lighting them on fire. Stupid all around. Lakers won 3 championships but they should have equalled the Bulls at least. They were that good.


Kobe should have just ACCEPTED 2nd fiddle role another 2-3 years and then take over. Sorry but its 100000x easier to playing winning basketball going through the BIGs than it is playing hero chuck ball from the outside.

And so what if Shaq was playing it lazy through the regular season. Look at what the top guys do today? Resting for a quarter of the year. Lakers were built for championships. Thats all that matters. And if you have a wining recipe, thats all that matters. If you're winning 'ships thats all that matters.

There are no meaningful, "Regular season trophies". Its about what you do in the post season because everyone's end goal is the same. Championships

They didn't have to sign Shaq to a ton of years but a nice 2-3 year heavy payday when he had a good 2-3 years of prime left is good enough. After all he did for the Lakers, I don't think it was too much to ask.


I mean their giving Westbrook 200-300 million.. For what?? to CRASH AND BURN in the first round? Giving Bosh max contracts? For what??

 

[trojanfan12]

Kobe played a part in it. He wanted the Lakers to be HIS Team because he was sick of playing piggyback to Shaq.

Never said he didn't. He also saw how lazy Shaq was and didn't feel that was the kind of leadership the team needed. He was right.

Literally nothing else in your post is correct. It's obvious that for you, it's more about your dislike for Kobe than it is about what the truth is. I mean, you're directly contradicting what both Shaq and Dr. Buss (who were far more involved than you or I) have said themselves.

I'm no Kobe fan other than I'm happy about the 5 titles and 7 finals appearances that I got to see that he was a huge part of. He was an asshole and could be a pretty lousy teammate at times. The fact that he "softened" a bit later in his career doesn't really fly with me either. But I'm also not going to blame him for stuff that isn't entirely on him. Especially when 2 of the people most closely involved have said it wasn't all on him.

Kobe should have just ACCEPTED 2nd fiddle role another 2-3 years and then take over.

No, what should have happened was what happened with Kareem and Magic as early as Magic's rookie season. Everyone knew that by about halfway through his rookie season, the Lakers had become Magic's team, including Magic and Kareem. But there was never any discussion about it.

Magic always gave Kareem the respect by calling him "Cap" or "Big Fella" and Kareem always deferred to Magic on the court.

You act like it's all on Kobe when Shaq played just as big a role and has not only admitted it, but said Kobe was right.

 

[DorianRo]

Never said he didn't. He also saw how lazy Shaq was and didn't feel that was the kind of leadership the team needed. He was right.

Literally nothing else in your post is correct. It's obvious that for you, it's more about your dislike for Kobe than it is about what the truth is. I mean, you're directly contradicting what both Shaq and Dr. Buss (who were far more involved than you or I) have said themselves.

I'm no Kobe fan other than I'm happy about the 5 titles and 7 finals appearances that I got to see that he was a huge part of. He was an asshole and could be a pretty lousy teammate at times. The fact that he "softened" a bit later in his career doesn't really fly with me either. But I'm also not going to blame him for stuff that isn't entirely on him. Especially when 2 of the people most closely involved have said it wasn't all on him.



No, what should have happened was what happened with Kareem and Magic as early as Magic's rookie season. Everyone knew that by about halfway through his rookie season, the Lakers had become Magic's team, including Magic and Kareem. But there was never any discussion about it.

Magic always gave Kareem the respect by calling him "Cap" or "Big Fella" and Kareem always deferred to Magic on the court.

You act like it's all on Kobe when Shaq played just as big a role and has not only admitted it, but said Kobe was right.

How do you know what the 100 percent truth is? How do we know Kobe didn't go to the Buss' and tell them not to pay Shaq anything he wants because he knew Shaq would take off? Things always go on behind closed doors. The 2004 Final PROVED to me Kobe is the one that wanted Shaq out. It was clear as day. Kobe iced everyone out that series and a result, get their rear ends beaten by a team who had NO BUSINESS even being on the court against them much less beating them. The pistons were inferior in every way

And you didn't cknowledge any other part of my post? Shaq didn't look lazy to me in 2005. He still had plenty of juice in the tank. It was more about Kobe's selfishness and inefficient Ball Chucking which cost the Lakers more titles. NOT Shaq's "regular season" laziness.

Kobe was never exactly much of a "leader" himself. He ran a few people out of LA and Im sure he also prevented ALOT of players from considering to go there.

I mean who wants to Stand around while Kobe goes 8-24 from the field every night with stupid shot selections?


And Phil himself has gone on record calling Kobe "uncoachable"


Shaq didn't really do anything most any other superstar don't do. Look at all the Vacation Days and "injuries" the top players in the NBA take prior to the playoffs. We all know there isn't anything wrong with them. At least severe.

Durant could have returned weeks ago. But he's taking it easy. Cavs rest and come up with fake injuries to take time off. Spurs take vacation days.

Lots of lazy players out there. The bottom line is championships though

 

[LAD]

What other option do they have?

If they don't pay him the supermax, he will leave. As much as I love to criticize Russ and calm down his hype men, the Thunder would be starting from scratch without Russ. It isn't an option not to pay him, especially after he said he wanted to stay in OKC.

To add to that point, they also need to stop being penny pinchers and spend the money it takes to surround him with a better cast. And not just any guys. They need players that would blend with Russ' style of play since he's their building block. For one I think a true PG is definitely needed. Russ probably doesn't even realize how much that would benefit his game. I think just that move alone opens up Russ' game more as well as Olidipo's too.

 

[LAD]

Allow me to end this thread:


Westbrook +/-


Game 2 (loss): +11
Game 4 (loss): +14
Game 5 (loss): +12


The Thunder lost these three games by a combined 14 point s. They were +37 with Westbrook on the floor during these games and -51 without him.

I don't think anyone is saying RW shouldn't have played. But, as that team's captain he should've adjusted his game to get his team mates more involved.

Isn't the argument always that it's the leaders job to make his guys better? Is that a standard to which other franchise players are held to but not RW?