Why in the hell is Durant talking smack to the OKC bench?

[SJ76]

I understand your POV coming from a guy who got the honor of watching the Bulls Dynasty. But KD and Westbrook had much more than a singular year together to win a championship. It's arguable talent-wise they were at their peak last year, but co-existance is much more than simply chemistry. It's about being able to make each other better, which KD and Westbrook were clearly not able to do.

Jordan and Pippen were great together because they were cohesive, offensively and defensively. Then you added in Rodman who was a perfect fit for those two because he didn't need the ball in his hands. Pippen was the clear #2 on a team with one alpha. KD and Westbrook were both Alpha's who didn't know how to take a backseat.

You can knock KD for going to the Warriors, that's fine. But you can't knock KD for wanting to leave a team where he and another player couldn't play their best basketball together.

With all due respect, you can't just compare the Bulls dynasty and OKC's 1st year under Billy D. Billy D is a helluva coach and that was KD and RW's first year with him. So no matter how many years they had together, they didn't have but 1 with a top tier coach. OKC has always been good on offense, but never good enough on defense to win a ring. So they found themselves up 3-1 on the defending champs last year in the conference finals and thought, "whoa". And instead of continuing to play bball they way they were, I think they might have been a bit shell shocked + GS started playing pretty good bball. 2 star players need time in a system to figure out how get it done in crunch time.

Phil Jackson's 1st full season as head coach of the Bulls was 1989. Bulls won their first title in 1991. So it took a bit for Jordan and Pippen to find their mojo (Pistons were bad ass as well).

KD left a dam good organization, with alot of talent, a good coach, and a loyal city. To have the success they did in the playoffs and lose like that up 3-1, then KD leaves and goes to the team that beat him? He's a total puss IMO. Always will be. Instead of buying into his 1st year head coach and the team, he chose to take the easy way and bail.


Game 5 & 6 - what do you see in those losses? I see way too many shots attempted by both guys. But really the key to their wins in the first 5 games was their defense - a Billy D staple.

WCF game 1: Win
RW 7/21
KD 10/30

game 2: Loss
RW 5/14
KD 11/18

game 3: Win
RW 10/19
KD 10/15

game 4: Win
RW 12/27
KD 8/24

game 5: Loss
RW 11/28
KD 12/31

game 6: Loss
RW 10/27
KD 10/31

game 7: Loss
RW 7/21
KD 10/19



And a big reason the Bulls dominated was because MJ and Pipp were studs on D. Big in big games on offense too, but huge on defense.


Go look at both their stats in closing game 5 of 1991 Finals.


KD leaving OKC to me was like Karl Malone leaving the Jazz and joining the Bulls. You're just like... Really?

 

[SJ76]

It's not about having 2 alphas or 3 alphas or just 1 alpha with 1-2 omegas or whatever.


BBall is about having the talent to win, but also playing as team to get it done. You most certainly can have 2 or 3 alphas, but you need some time to figure it out as a team and players need to be unselfish.

Cleveland did it and they did it with defense +1 huge shot in the last 4 minutes of game 7 in last year's Finals. I remember the Defense in those last 4 minutes being pretty sick - Lebron's block.. Shot selection for GS was not great, but that happens at crunchtime after you've been up 3-1.

 

[CitySushi]

With all due respect, you can't just compare the Bulls dynasty and OKC's 1st year under Billy D. Billy D is a helluva coach and that was KD and RW's first year with him. So no matter how many years they had together, they didn't have but 1 with a top tier coach. OKC has always been good on offense, but never good enough on defense to win a ring. So they found themselves up 3-1 on the defending champs last year in the conference finals and thought, "whoa". And instead of continuing to play bball they way they were, I think they might have been a bit shell shocked + GS started playing pretty good bball. 2 star players need time in a system to figure out how get it done in crunch time.

Phil Jackson's 1st full season as head coach of the Bulls was 1989. Bulls won their first title in 1991. So it took a bit for Jordan and Pippen to find their mojo (Pistons were bad ass as well).

KD left a dam good organization, with alot of talent, a good coach, and a loyal city. To have the success they did in the playoffs and lose like that up 3-1, then KD leaves and goes to the team that beat him? He's a total puss IMO. Always will be. Instead of buying into his 1st year head coach and the team, he chose to take the easy way and bail.


Game 5 & 6 - what do you see in those losses? I see way too many shots attempted by both guys. But really the key to their wins in the first 5 games was their defense - a Billy D staple.

WCF game 1: Win
RW 7/21
KD 10/30

game 2: Loss
RW 5/14
KD 11/18

game 3: Win
RW 10/19
KD 10/15

game 4: Win
RW 12/27
KD 8/24

game 5: Loss
RW 11/28
KD 12/31

game 6: Loss
RW 10/27
KD 10/31

game 7: Loss
RW 7/21
KD 10/19



And a big reason the Bulls dominated was because MJ and Pipp were studs on D. Big in big games on offense too, but huge on defense.


Go look at both their stats in closing game 5 of 1991 Finals.


KD leaving OKC to me was like Karl Malone leaving the Jazz and joining the Bulls. You're just like... Really?

Oh, I'm definitely not comparing the two, just pointing out that Westbrook and Durant have played together for years. If your thinking is that they need more time under Donovan, that's perfectly reasonable to me. However, I think there does come a certain point where a realization kicks in that the continuity and chemistry between the two was not there, and will never be. The Thunder had already been to an NBA finals with Westbrook, KD and Harden. So it's not like they have never experienced success before and KD was simply unwilling to give it a try.

I think Westbrook and Durant are both top 5 players in the NBA right now. But their styles are completely different. It would be like pairing Kobe and Iverson together. Yes they would be easily the most talented scoring Duo in the league, but you know that just wouldn't work. Their games don't mesh. They wouldn't make each other better. Same is the case with KD and Westbrook. Both are better off on teams suited to best utilize their talents. We've seen this year how dominant Westbrook is with the ball in his hands at all times. KD is still putting up big numbers on the Warriors. For me, it's just a case of two guys finding the best possible situation for their games and I think they've both found it.

 

[Scapegoat]

I understand your POV coming from a guy who got the honor of watching the Bulls Dynasty. But KD and Westbrook had much more than a singular year together to win a championship. It's arguable talent-wise they were at their peak last year, but co-existance is much more than simply chemistry. It's about being able to make each other better, which KD and Westbrook were clearly not able to do.

Jordan and Pippen were great together because they were cohesive, offensively and defensively. Then you added in Rodman who was a perfect fit for those two because he didn't need the ball in his hands. Pippen was the clear #2 on a team with one alpha. KD and Westbrook were both Alpha's who didn't know how to take a backseat.

You can knock KD for going to the Warriors, that's fine. But you can't knock KD for wanting to leave a team where he and another player couldn't play their best basketball together.

So did kd learn to take a backseat? Or are you saying Curry knows how? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Not start an argument.

 

[SJ76]

Oh, I'm definitely not comparing the two, just pointing out that Westbrook and Durant have played together for years. If your thinking is that they need more time under Donovan, that's perfectly reasonable to me. However, I think there does come a certain point where a realization kicks in that the continuity and chemistry between the two was not there, and will never be. The Thunder had already been to an NBA finals with Westbrook, KD and Harden. So it's not like they have never experienced success before and KD was simply unwilling to give it a try.

I think Westbrook and Durant are both top 5 players in the NBA right now. But their styles are completely different. It would be like pairing Kobe and Iverson together. Yes they would be easily the most talented scoring Duo in the league, but you know that just wouldn't work. Their games don't mesh. They wouldn't make each other better. Same is the case with KD and Westbrook. Both are better off on teams suited to best utilize their talents. We've seen this year how dominant Westbrook is with the ball in his hands at all times. KD is still putting up big numbers on the Warriors. For me, it's just a case of two guys finding the best possible situation for their games and I think they've both found it.

Kobe is more talented on offense than Durant and much better on defense in his prime. But Kobe and Shaq had no chemistry and disliked each other until Phil put that team together and taught them how to play together. KD didn't even give it a shot even after just 1 year and had a helluva playoff run - shows me he was too selfish to even give it a try. And why not? They had such a good playoff run. No faith in doing it again?


IMO KD ran out on Billy D, his team, his city, after Billy D's first year -- that was actually dam good. They peaked in the playoffs and did everything a team is supposed to do besides close out the champs up 3-1 - which ain't easy, but that OKC team was ballin mostly because they were getting stops on GS. That's the thing the OKC boys never had was solid D and they have that kind of coach now.


Could you leave your teammates after a year like that and go to the team that beat you? I'd feel like a pansy.


We will never know.

 

[CitySushi]

So did kd learn to take a backseat? Or are you saying Curry knows how? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Not start an argument.

No, neither has necessarily taken a back seat, but that's because their games compliment each other. Both can play off ball, and both are good passers.

The problem with the KD/Westbrook duo, is that neither was able to benefit while one or the other had the ball. Westbrook is an absolute beast with the ball in his hands. So when he had it, his main skillset (or best) was to get to the rim and try to finish, using his athleticism. That didn't do much for ball movement, meaning that KD was basically on the shelf for the play. Likewise when KD was operating, Russ wasn't a good outside shooter, so if KD drove to the hoop and the defense collapsed, Russ would either take a low percentage 3, or have to drive into a completely clogged lane.

My main argument isn't that either needed to take a backseat, it's that their games didn't compliment each other and make each other better. It's way too early to tell if Steph and KD will work, but based on their skillsets it's much more likely they'll figure out a way. Steph is fantastic with the ball in his hands, but he's equally as deadly without it. In my example above, if Steph drives or creates, KD is going to have a ton of opportunites with wide open, high percentage shots. Likewise if KD drives into the lane, the defense can't collapse off of Steph, meaning that KD will either have much more room to operate in the paint to score, or can kick out to Steph for a high percentage 3. Their games are complimentary meaning that while one may have to take a backseat for a game, each can still be highly effective as the secondary player. I don't believe that was the case with Westbrook and KD. If one took a backseat it negated their efficiency as a player, even though whoever did have the ball at the time was still great with it.

Again, NEITHER KD nor Westbrook as at fault here. Westbrook has gotten too much blame for not getting KD the ball enough. KD is blamed for not sticking it out. Both in actuality have ended up in much better places suited to place emphasis on the best parts of their game.

 

[SJ76]

No, neither has necessarily taken a back seat, but that's because their games compliment each other. Both can play off ball, and both are good passers.

The problem with the KD/Westbrook duo, is that neither was able to benefit while one or the other had the ball. Westbrook is an absolute beast with the ball in his hands. So when he had it, his main skillset (or best) was to get to the rim and try to finish, using his athleticism. That didn't do much for ball movement, meaning that KD was basically on the shelf for the play. Likewise when KD was operating, Russ wasn't a good outside shooter, so if KD drove to the hoop and the defense collapsed, Russ would either take a low percentage 3, or have to drive into a completely clogged lane.

My main argument isn't that either needed to take a backseat, it's that their games didn't compliment each other and make each other better. It's way too early to tell if Steph and KD will work, but based on their skillsets it's much more likely they'll figure out a way. Steph is fantastic with the ball in his hands, but he's equally as deadly without it. In my example above, if Steph drives or creates, KD is going to have a ton of opportunites with wide open, high percentage shots. Likewise if KD drives into the lane, the defense can't collapse off of Steph, meaning that KD will either have much more room to operate in the paint to score, or can kick out to Steph for a high percentage 3. Their games are complimentary meaning that while one may have to take a backseat for a game, each can still be highly effective as the secondary player. I don't believe that was the case with Westbrook and KD. If one took a backseat it negated their efficiency as a player, even though whoever did have the ball at the time was still great with it.

Again, NEITHER KD nor Westbrook as at fault here. Westbrook has gotten too much blame for not getting KD the ball enough. KD is blamed for not sticking it out. Both in actuality have ended up in much better places suited to place emphasis on the best parts of their game.

Tough comparison, but Jordan and Pippen were not great outside shooters either. Both guys were slashers and had a really good mid-range game. They just finally found a system that worked on offense (thanks to coach) and they played great defense. Now you didn't see Jordan or Pippen chucking up 3's alot either - they were smart in their shot selection.

I'd be interested to know what Billy D thinks about KD and Westbrook co-existing last year before KD left. Reason I bring up Jordan is that even he said Westbrook is the one player in the NBA that reminds him of himself. I don't think Westbrook is as disciplined, determined, or has the court vision MJ did tho.


Point is... A good coach can make it work with other good role players around 2 studs.

 

[CitySushi]

Kobe is more talented on offense than Durant and much better on defense in his prime. But Kobe and Shaq had no chemistry and disliked each other until Phil put that team together and taught them how to play together. KD didn't even give it a shot even after just 1 year and had a helluva playoff run - shows me he was too selfish to even give it a try. And why not? They had such a good playoff run. No faith in doing it again?


IMO KD ran out on Billy D, his team, his city, after Billy D's first year -- that was actually dam good. They peaked in the playoffs and did everything a team is supposed to do besides close out the champs up 3-1 - which ain't easy, but that OKC team was ballin mostly because they were getting stops on GS. That's the thing the OKC boys never had was solid D and they have that kind of coach now.


Could you leave your teammates after a year like that and go to the team that beat you? I'd feel like a pansy.


We will never know.

I get where you're coming from, but again you can't really compare the dynamic between two wing players, and a wing and a big. By definition the Wing and Big are complimentary because they do two different things. Shaq commanded a double team every time, which opened up space for Kobe. Likewise with Kobe being such a perimeter threat, it prevented a solid double on Shaq everytime. The balance was there because it was built in, even if their on-court chemistry was not.

For Pippen and Jordan, their chemistry was also built-in, as much as it was created. Pippen was a good scorer, but wasn't a dynamic one. His best skillset was being the Point-Small forward to allow Jordan to operate. If you replaced Scottie Pippen with Dominique Wilkins, would the Bulls have had the same chemistry? Probably not, because you didn't have the right fit. You had another dynamic scorer, but one that probably didn't make MJ better. Likewise you would want the ball in MJ's hands as much as possible, which then places diminishing returns on Wilkins play.

Last thing is I get athletes are held to a different standard, but I try to equate their decisions based on a real life model. If you had a chance to switch your job right now, for equal pay, but your quality of work life would be much superior, would you do it? Or would you simply stay at your job and be unhappy out of loyalty?

 

[WiggyRuss]

It's not about having 2 alphas or 3 alphas or just 1 alpha with 1-2 omegas or whatever.


BBall is about having the talent to win, but also playing as team to get it done. You most certainly can have 2 or 3 alphas, but you need some time to figure it out as a team and players need to be unselfish.

Cleveland did it and they did it with defense +1 huge shot in the last 4 minutes of game 7 in last year's Finals. I remember the Defense in those last 4 minutes being pretty sick - Lebron's block.. Shot selection for GS was not great, but that happens at crunchtime after you've been up 3-1.

Klove's defense on Steph Curry !!! dont forget that! Klove moved his feet like a russian ballerina

 

[SJ76]

I get where you're coming from, but again you can't really compare the dynamic between two wing players, and a wing and a big. By definition the Wing and Big are complimentary because they do two different things. Shaq commanded a double team every time, which opened up space for Kobe. Likewise with Kobe being such a perimeter threat, it prevented a solid double on Shaq everytime. The balance was there because it was built in, even if their on-court chemistry was not.

For Pippen and Jordan, their chemistry was also built-in, as much as it was created. Pippen was a good scorer, but wasn't a dynamic one. His best skillset was being the Point-Small forward to allow Jordan to operate. If you replaced Scottie Pippen with Dominique Wilkins, would the Bulls have had the same chemistry? Probably not, because you didn't have the right fit. You had another dynamic scorer, but one that probably didn't make MJ better. Likewise you would want the ball in MJ's hands as much as possible, which then places diminishing returns on Wilkins play.

Last thing is I get athletes are held to a different standard, but I try to equate their decisions based on a real life model. If you had a chance to switch your job right now, for equal pay, but your quality of work life would be much superior, would you do it? Or would you simply stay at your job and be unhappy out of loyalty?

To me, you are working the ball around on offense to get shots for those 2 star players - makes no difference to me what position they play. Both are dominating the offense taking most of the shots.

MJ is a different animal - yes he gets the ball late because hes the best ever at it. Westbrook and Durant are both pretty good at it, they just needed more time IMO under a coach to help work that out.


As far as my job... Not sure i can follow you. I could leave now to a competitor and make the same money and would still have to grind to win and get business. So I don't agree that KD's results are going to be that much better in GS that what he was going to do in OKC. I believe in Billy D - he's a great coach and he's still going to do well in OKC. I think KD jumped ship a bit too early and if he wanted a ring, he should have taken a slightly back seat to Westbrook and been the bigger man/team player... That's what he is going to do in GS to win one right? Steph Curry or Westbrook at PG.. What's the difference?

Difference is that he sold out to do it.

 

[SJ76]

Klove's defense on Steph Curry !!! dont forget that! Klove moved his feet like a russian ballerina

Let's see if he can do it again and hit that shot again for ring #2.

 

[LAD]

With all due respect, you can't just compare the Bulls dynasty and OKC's 1st year under Billy D. Billy D is a helluva coach and that was KD and RW's first year with him. So no matter how many years they had together, they didn't have but 1 with a top tier coach. OKC has always been good on offense, but never good enough on defense to win a ring. So they found themselves up 3-1 on the defending champs last year in the conference finals and thought, "whoa". And instead of continuing to play bball they way they were, I think they might have been a bit shell shocked + GS started playing pretty good bball. 2 star players need time in a system to figure out how get it done in crunch time.

Phil Jackson's 1st full season as head coach of the Bulls was 1989. Bulls won their first title in 1991. So it took a bit for Jordan and Pippen to find their mojo (Pistons were bad ass as well).

KD left a dam good organization, with alot of talent, a good coach, and a loyal city. To have the success they did in the playoffs and lose like that up 3-1, then KD leaves and goes to the team that beat him? He's a total puss IMO. Always will be. Instead of buying into his 1st year head coach and the team, he chose to take the easy way and bail.


Game 5 & 6 - what do you see in those losses? I see way too many shots attempted by both guys. But really the key to their wins in the first 5 games was their defense - a Billy D staple.

WCF game 1: Win
RW 7/21
KD 10/30

game 2: Loss
RW 5/14
KD 11/18

game 3: Win
RW 10/19
KD 10/15

game 4: Win
RW 12/27
KD 8/24

game 5: Loss
RW 11/28
KD 12/31

game 6: Loss
RW 10/27
KD 10/31

game 7: Loss
RW 7/21
KD 10/19



And a big reason the Bulls dominated was because MJ and Pipp were studs on D. Big in big games on offense too, but huge on defense.


Go look at both their stats in closing game 5 of 1991 Finals.


KD leaving OKC to me was like Karl Malone leaving the Jazz and joining the Bulls. You're just like... Really?

That top tier coach didn't come in and do anything different than the previous coach...so how many more years was KD supposed to wait?

 

[CitySushi]

Steph Curry or Westbrook at PG.. What's the difference?

I know it's way early into the season, but there is a huge difference. KD has his highest PER of his career right now including his MVP Season. His usage rate is at career low 28.0, his shots are down from 19.2 per night last year to 17.9 and yet he's averaging MORE points than last year at 28.9. His True Shooting Percentage is also at an all time high at .681.

KD's offensive efficiency has shot through the roof. He's averaging more points per game on less attempts, and having the ball less in his hands. That's huge in the grand scheme of things. It's because the whole court is open now and the quality of KD's shots are astronomically better. That has everything to do with the ball movement of the team and with Steph being able to draw an additional defender out of the lane when KD drives.

 

[LAD]

So did kd learn to take a backseat? Or are you saying Curry knows how? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Not start an argument.

Curry has made the most change- as the PG that was to be expected. RW isn't a true PG & IMO shouldn't be used as one as his primary role.

 

[LAD]

Kobe is more talented on offense than Durant and much better on defense in his prime. But Kobe and Shaq had no chemistry and disliked each other until Phil put that team together and taught them how to play together. KD didn't even give it a shot even after just 1 year and had a helluva playoff run - shows me he was too selfish to even give it a try. And why not? They had such a good playoff run. No faith in doing it again?


IMO KD ran out on Billy D, his team, his city, after Billy D's first year -- that was actually dam good. They peaked in the playoffs and did everything a team is supposed to do besides close out the champs up 3-1 - which ain't easy, but that OKC team was ballin mostly because they were getting stops on GS. That's the thing the OKC boys never had was solid D and they have that kind of coach now.


Could you leave your teammates after a year like that and go to the team that beat you? I'd feel like a pansy.


We will never know.

Their last season as you described was something they experienced year after year- it almost was like that was their ceiling. How can you blame a guy for wanting more when he's top 5 in the league?

 

[WiggyRuss]

they choked away their lead down 3-1 and then Durant got scared. Scared that he would never beat them and he would end up ringless like Malone. Its what it comes down to. He couldnt take the pressure and the constant questions for potentially years to come- and just wants to get it over with and get one so he can relax mentally. If he wins one i fully expect him to leave golden state soon thereafter.

 

[SJ76]

That top tier coach didn't come in and do anything different than the previous coach...so how many more years was KD supposed to wait?

Goodness He he didn't bring solid defense to the table in OKC huh? They rolled through the Mavs and Spurs, then up 3-1 on GS? Game 3 and 4 were 20+ beatdowns on GS because OKC kept getting stops/went on big runs.

All in Billy D's 1st year? In a loaded Western conference?

 

[LAD]

Goodness He he didn't bring solid defense to the table in OKC huh? They rolled through the Mavs and Spurs, then up 3-1 on GS? Game 3 and 4 were 20+ beatdowns on GS because OKC kept getting stops.

All in Billy D's 1st year? In a loaded Western conference?

Sure, but that's only one end of the court. What did he do differently on offense with his two weapons? You do realize part of the reason they lost to the Warriors was because they went back to iso ball those last 3 games, right? That opened the door just enough for the Warriors. Part of coaching is being able to pull your guys back in when they get away from the plan that is working. Billy wasn't able to do that & watched his team lose as a result.

 

[SJ76]

I know it's way early into the season, but there is a huge difference. KD has his highest PER of his career right now including his MVP Season. His usage rate is at career low 28.0, his shots are down from 19.2 per night last year to 17.9 and yet he's averaging MORE points than last year at 28.9. His True Shooting Percentage is also at an all time high at .681.

KD's offensive efficiency has shot through the roof. He's averaging more points per game on less attempts, and having the ball less in his hands. That's huge in the grand scheme of things. It's because the whole court is open now and the quality of KD's shots are astronomically better. That has everything to do with the ball movement of the team and with Steph being able to draw an additional defender out of the lane when KD drives.

I agree ball movement can create good shots and GS does it well. But they had these guys by the balls in their coaches 1st year is all I'm saying.

We'll never know. And that's my opinion. I'm a loyal guy. And I don't like seeing the NBA with 2-3 great teams that are loaded and the rest is just going through the motions. It's bad for the league

 

[SJ76]

Sure, but that's only one end of the court. What did he do differently on offense with his two weapons? You do realize part of the reason they lost to the Warriors was because they went back to iso ball those last 3 games, right? That opened the door just enough for the Warriors. Part of coaching is being able to pull your guys back in when they get away from the plan that is working. Billy wasn't able to do that & watched his team lose as a result.

I think it was a variety of things that caused them to lose those 3 games. GS woke up and OKC stopped doing what they were doing the first 4 games. OKC may have went ISO because GS forced them to by playing much better D. Nothing you can do about great defense in your face. Teams force shots at times - look at GS in the last 4 minutes of game 7 in the Finals. Momentum is a mothefucker



To expect a 1st year coach to even get that far on the defending champs is a bit much IMO.