How many more Rings would Bill have if Brady wasnt born?

[sonnyblack65]

Let's ignore all of the other games and just focus on the few that make my point. This is also disingenuous.

Another way to do this is like this: let's compare them the last 3 times they met in the AFC Championship game.

Brady 3 td's 3 interceptions 0-3 record
Manning 5 td's 1 interception 3-0 record

I hear ya Bronco's I was talking about Dirt saying the D bailed him out in SB's not talking about playoffs. I wasn't cherry picking 3 games just the SB's. I didn't pull out Peyton having the worst playoffs for a SB winner in 06 3 TD's 7/int. He was awesome in regular season, but Peyton definitely won his titles because of D. You know that first hand as he had as many t/os and he had points this last SB win

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I would never compare Montana or any of that eras QB's to todays, where all the rules have now made it where every QB in the NFL today should the numbers of guys we called "All Time Greats" from many years ago

Lets be real here about a few things

Tom Brady's ticket to the postseason is punched more than any other QB in the NFL for the past 15 seasons, before kickoff Week One, simply because of the division he has had the good fortune of playing in......You don't buy it? I don't care, you are in denial.......So don't give "30+" playoff games.....There are a shit ton, a SHIT TON of QB;s winning the AFC East every season the last 15 years.........I think Cleo fucking Lemon is still in the conversation for "Best QB in the AFC East the past 15 seasons" (Besides Brady, who clearly is).......Are their years where other QB's play in an easy division? Sure....Has any QB played in a shitty division for his entire 15 year career? No....So basically his playoff ticket is punched, his battle for HF is not much of a battle at all because of that division........The volume of games doesn't impress me one bit......I firmly believe Philip Rivers would be a 10 time division champ if he swapped divisions with Tom Brady.....Same for Ben, etc.

Lol.... you are really holding onto that aren't you??? That is pretty funny.

That "shitty division" only won that division once in the past decade... when a 1 win team the year before won it over Cassel. How is it it's shitty except for the two seasons when the Patriots don't have Brady. Then it takes over and NE is looking up at the division champ???


And that would be a great argument (also could be one for SF of the 80's who also had the bonus of only having to win a 4 team division while every other had 5 teams).


Lets see if that argument holds up... Lets use empirical evidence rather than "I think without looking anything up that..."


Brady Vs. His division 67-19 (79%). If he ONLY faced that weak division he'd be on pace for 12.48 wins a year.

Brady vs. his non-division opponents.. 105-34 (77%). If he NEVER faced that weak division he'd be on pace for 12.15 wins per year.


Sorry... Yeah you can point out his division gives him a SLIGHTLY better win rate.

Brady's record 2% better vs. his weak division than the rest of the league
Bradshaw's record 4% better vs. his weak division...
Peyton's record 6% better vs. his weak division...
Montana's record 8% better vs. his weak division...

So not only the most division titles ever, but his record outside of his division was more key to him winning them than those other three.


Brady has the same win% vs. the NFC as his own division. Has better win percentages over the AFC South NFC East, and NFC North than his own division. So it sounds like a great narrative there, but no, not outside of the norm for these extraordinary circumstances. Nothing different than what the other guys got. In fact they were 200%-400% better off.


But hey, why use facts when we can make up narratives without them...

Again, you are saying he's not good because he didn't do something no one else ever has before him. It's the "Usain Bolt isn't good because he doesn't run the 100 in less than 9 seconds" logic... Which I can't buy.


Look I've enjoyed our chat today. But when you get down to that kind of cherry picking and saying "the problem with Brady is he hasn't done things that no one else in the history of the league has either ever before"... Then I think you've unintentionally made all the proof about how great of a QB Brady is.

 

[Dude]

Wow, Dirt is receiving a facts thrashing from Rockin, has he come up for air yet?

 

[Gooch1034]

Maybe a better question would be how many rings Bill and Tom would have without Adam V.?

 

[Gooch1034]

Lol.... you are really holding onto that aren't you??? That is pretty funny.

That "shitty division" only won that division once in the past decade... when a 1 win team the year before won it over Cassel. How is it it's shitty except for the two seasons when the Patriots don't have Brady. Then it takes over and NE is looking up at the division champ???


And that would be a great argument (also could be one for SF of the 80's who also had the bonus of only having to win a 4 team division while every other had 5 teams).


Lets see if that argument holds up... Lets use empirical evidence rather than "I think without looking anything up that..."


Brady Vs. His division 67-19 (79%). If he ONLY faced that weak division he'd be on pace for 12.48 wins a year.

Brady vs. his non-division opponents.. 105-34 (77%). If he NEVER faced that weak division he'd be on pace for 12.15 wins per year.


Sorry... Yeah you can point out his division gives him a SLIGHTLY better win rate.

Brady's record 2% better vs. his weak division than the rest of the league
Bradshaw's record 4% better vs. his weak division...
Peyton's record 6% better vs. his weak division...
Montana's record 8% better vs. his weak division...

So not only the most division titles ever, but his record outside of his division was more key to him winning them than those other three.


Brady has the same win% vs. the NFC as his own division. Has better win percentages over the AFC South NFC East, and NFC North than his own division. So it sounds like a great narrative there, but no, not outside of the norm for these extraordinary circumstances. Nothing different than what the other guys got. In fact they were 200%-400% better off.


But hey, why use facts when we can make up narratives without them...

Again, you are saying he's not good because he didn't do something no one else ever has before him. It's the "Usain Bolt isn't good because he doesn't run the 100 in less than 9 seconds" logic... Which I can't buy.


Look I've enjoyed our chat today. But when you get down to that kind of cherry picking and saying "the problem with Brady is he hasn't done things that no one else in the history of the league has either ever before"... Then I think you've unintentionally made all the proof about how great of a QB Brady is.

 

[Dude]

Maybe a better question would be how many rings Bill and Tom would have without Adam V.?

Adam was clutch as hell, that's for sure.

 

[Gooch1034]

Adam was clutch as hell, that's for sure.

To add, I meant that with no disrespect.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Keep this on point. It's not about Palmer playoff wiz

Well if Palmer was on the pats they would have won at least 12 titles in a row. Everyone knows that.

 

[Dude]

To add, I meant that with no disrespect.

That's the way it came across. To believe that Vinatieri was not instrumental is not realistic.

 

[Gooch1034]

Well if Palmer was on the pats they would have won at least 12 titles in a row. Everyone knows that.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

That's the way it came across. To believe that Vinatieri was not instrumental is not realistic.

Agree it is a team sport and plenty of guys were huge.. I remember earlier in Brady's career you could make the statement that if you switched Vinatieri and Norwood, Brady might have the same record as Kelly in the SB.

But just because it's a team sport and that doesn't take away from Brady being elite. Just like Montana never having a winning year in SF without a top 10 defense doesn't take away from his greatness (5-12 there without that dominant D).

You don't have that elite level of success without greatness around you as well. Jordan without Pippen and Phil Jackson, Magic and Bird without playing with about 10 other HOFers. Emmitt and Jim Brown without those amazing O-lines. Warner without Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Pace, and a D that was taking away the ball like crazy that one year. QB is by far the most important part of it, but by no means all of it. I think that's why the post-season is usually the who's who of good QB's, but the guy who wins it all has the more complete team around him.

Brady isn't throwing 49 TD's without Moss. But that doesn't mean he isn't elite. He also led the league in TD's with Christian Fauria as his #1 end zone target too. I've seen the guys that are successful due to the roster/system/coaches. It doesn't sustain. Guys like Cunningham and Rypien and Maddox, Mitchell, Beurlein, DeBerg, Grbac...

 

[TP76]

He also had to face Montana and Young, aka the 2 best QBs of all time.

BB never had to face anyone on that level.

It's beyond obvious you weren't watching football in the 80's...

 

[Dude]

Agree it is a team sport and plenty of guys were huge.. I remember earlier in Brady's career you could make the statement that if you switched Vinatieri and Norwood, Brady might have the same record as Kelly in the SB.

But just because it's a team sport and that doesn't take away from Brady being elite. Just like Montana never having a winning year in SF without a top 10 defense doesn't take away from his greatness (5-12 there without that dominant D).

You don't have that elite level of success without greatness around you as well. Jordan without Pippen and Phil Jackson, Magic and Bird without playing with about 10 other HOFers. Emmitt and Jim Brown without those amazing O-lines. Warner without Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Pace, and a D that was taking away the ball like crazy that one year. QB is by far the most important part of it, but by no means all of it. I think that's why the post-season is usually the who's who of good QB's, but the guy who wins it all has the more complete team around him.

Brady isn't throwing 49 TD's without Moss. But that doesn't mean he isn't elite. He also led the league in TD's with Christian Fauria as his #1 end zone target too. I've seen the guys that are successful due to the roster/system/coaches. It doesn't sustain. Guys like Cunningham and Rypien and Maddox, Mitchell, Beurlein, DeBerg, Grbac...

Completely agree. It has always been a team effort. However, saying that Brady is elite bothers some people, as if saying that takes anything away from all the other contributors.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

And I realized I forgot Manning's time with the Bronco's there for his divisional vs. non divisional record. But I think with how he did vs. the AFC West and vs. the Colts as a Bronco, that would not be hurting my point.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Im ok with pointing out his "amazing play" in big moments throughout his career

Lets just point out all the games in the postseason they lost because of his poor play

I mean, you don't have to have the greatest memory, the last time it happened was in this calendar year

Every great has bad moments... But his good moments clearly outweigh the bad ... Even in the loss last year vs the Broncos he made some ridiculously good throws, that last one to Cronk on 4th down being one of the best passes of the year... Sure he had the pick to end it for the 2 point conversion but that was a situation where he had to force it... If you look at Brady's performances in the post season overall he's been extremely good ..

 

[sonnyblack65]

Well if Palmer was on the pats they would have won at least 12 titles in a row. Everyone knows that.

Yes we do

 

[Delphic1]

Every great has bad moments... But his good moments clearly outweigh the bad ... Even in the loss last year vs the Broncos he made some ridiculously good throws, that last one to Cronk on 4th down being one of the best passes of the year... Sure he had the pick to end it for the 2 point conversion but that was a situation where he had to force it... If you look at Brady's performances in the post season overall he's been extremely good ..

LOL. That throw was clearly just a lobbed ball, something like a hail mary. It was Gronk who came down with it. It was probably one of the worst passes Brady* has ever thrown in his career. Gronk simply saved his ass, and the DB/ LB who was covering him messed up big time.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Every great has bad moments... But his good moments clearly outweigh the bad ... Even in the loss last year vs the Broncos he made some ridiculously good throws, that last one to Cronk on 4th down being one of the best passes of the year... Sure he had the pick to end it for the 2 point conversion but that was a situation where he had to force it... If you look at Brady's performances in the post season overall he's been extremely good ..

Exactly. You want to find the QB who never had a really bad moment in the post-season you need to find the one hit wonders. Hostetler, Pat Ryan, Holcomb types.


Mark Sanchez has never cost his team a game in the playoffs with poor play. He's the best QB in AFC History in terms of QB rating in the post-season (min 150 attempts).

If that's the standard you want... that's your Elite QB.

I think any NFL all-time elite lists that have Holcomb and Sanchez on them are ones I want NOTHING to do with.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

An entire day all over the sports world GUSHING over the greatness of Bill Belichick

Sports personalities

Former and current NFL players and coaches

Absolutely gushing

People wanting to re-name the Lombardi


Not in this place, this place we diminish his greatness, in order to glorify Bradys'

 

[Rockinkuwait]

LOL. That throw was clearly just a lobbed ball, something like a hail mary. It was Gronk who came down with it. It was probably one of the worst passes Brady* has ever thrown in his career. Gronk simply saved his ass, and the DB/ LB who was covering him messed up big time.

LOL, you are kidding right???

I think you have the wrong play, because this is the one where it was the corner (Harris) and the safety (Bush) covering him, no LB... If you are talking about the 4th and 15 where Gronk had a half step on the defense and Brady dropped it right into his hands with him not having to slow down a bit to let the D make a play on it? That was an amazing play by the QB to put it right where it had to be.

The 4th and goal was the one where he put it on the numbers between the DB and the LB.



Like How the fuck is hitting your WR 40 yards downfield over the correct shoulder with his arms extended right in the hands when he's running full speed anything but an absolutely fucking gorgeous ball?