teams in the KC race this off season

[gkekoa]

Its a copout because you use it to discredit anybody who can run at all.

Of course I discredit the passing of a collegiate QB who is also running a gimmick offense as a runner. Like I said, his running affords him opportunities that won’t be there in the NFL. When you are a 60% passer and you have the benefit of running and what it does to a defense, then yes, you should be discredited as a passer.

I don’t compare Jackson to RG3 because they are different type runners. RG3was straight line speed and LJ is allusive as well as fast. I actually like that part of LJ much better. If you go back to RG3’s rookie year, I mentioned the same things on how it improved RG3because of his run threat and how that helped Reed and Ammo. He made players around him better in a way. When his legs were taken away, he isn’t even an NFL back up.

Oh, I don’t take away from Russell Wilson even though he can run. I don’t think he would be an NFL QB if he couldn’t though.

 

[j_y19]

Jackson is too. Thats why he's a 1st round nfl prospect.

A guy that rushes for over 1300 yards as a QB is not a pass first guy. Running is a crucial piece of his game and it also has had a significant affect on his passing in that it freezes the defenses and leaves wide receivers WIDE open at times. An yet, he still can't compete 60% of his passes........hmmm.

The comparison to Wilson is way off base. Wilson was never a running QB. The most yards he ever rushed for in one season was around 400 in college. That is a far cry from 1300 yds and clearly that aspect of his game was not a primary feature.

I think what everyone is trying to say is that Jackson's ability to run has had a major impact on his success in his passing game. That feature will not be nearly as available to him in the NFL. So it is reasonable to think that he is going to have to redefine his game to become an NFL QB as he is not rushing for 1300 yards in the NFL or his career will be very short lived. Can he do it? Anything is possible, its really up to him and how hard he is willing to work. But he has to be viewed as a project at this point.

I recall all the talk at the beginning of the season as to how deep this draft class will be at QB. Honestly, I don't see anyone coming out that i view as a can't miss prospect. I'm sure one or two may emerge as future NFL franchise guys, but I bet its not who everyone thinks it will be (Rosen, Mayfield, etc). Look for sleepers the have been overlooked because of all of the hype surrounding the top 5 or so.

 

[Stymietee]

This is a very interesting conversation, albeit, one that hits the target and misses the bulls-eye. Some here have used former "running" QB's to make a point while others cite a few of the current crop of "running" QB's to make another.

Fact is, it doesn't matter how far back you want to go, nor, how recent your point of reference is with respect to such QB's. We all agree that they have talents, the question and bulls-eye has little or nothing to do with past or current levels of success, but rather, how best to maximize success rates going forward.

In that respect, we know what doesn't work, I:E the sink or swim method that comes with impatience and frankly greed and self serving ignorance in front offices and coaching staffs everywhere. What we don't know is, how does real patience, proper transitioning and re-training effect success rates of these players. It's never been tried and believe it or not that takes real work rather than hope. True evaluations of such players, Sitting them and using their abilities to learn, and re-learn, with QB coaches who are strong enough to handle misguided temperaments built in high schools and on college campuses.

If Washington plans to select a player like this, they, above almost every other organization in the NFL, must learn from the mistakes of their last failed effort to transition such a player. Throwing away that failed playbook, and determine themselves to, this time, try something different. Namely, exercising patience and a resolve to, do things correctly, an NFL version of "Redshirting" if you will. I personally don't expect anything close to a proper methodology coming from our current front offices, but, that too, is why they likely will doom yet another talented player to failure, before he has a decent chance at success.

 

[Sportster 72]

This is a very interesting conversation, albeit, one that hits the target and misses the bulls-eye. Some here have used former "running" QB's to make a point while others cite a few of the current crop of "running" QB's to make another.

Fact is, it doesn't matter how far back you want to go, nor, how recent your point of reference is with respect to such QB's. We all agree that they have talents, the question and bulls-eye has little or nothing to do with past or current levels of success, but rather, how best to maximize success rates going forward.

In that respect, we know what doesn't work, I:E the sink or swim method that comes with impatience and frankly greed and self serving ignorance in front offices and coaching staffs everywhere. What we don't know is, how does real patience, proper transitioning and re-training effect success rates of these players. It's never been tried and believe it or not that takes real work rather than hope. True evaluations of such players, Sitting them and using their abilities to learn, and re-learn, with QB coaches who are strong enough to handle misguided temperaments built in high schools and on college campuses.

If Washington plans to select a player like this, they, above almost every other organization in the NFL, must learn from the mistakes of their last failed effort to transition such a player. Throwing away that failed playbook, and determine themselves to, this time, try something different. Namely, exercising patience and a resolve to, do things correctly, an NFL version of "Redshirting" if you will. I personally don't expect anything close to a proper methodology coming from our current front offices, but, that too, is why they likely will doom yet another talented player to failure, before he has a decent chance at success.

I know that is one of your talking points Sty and I won't say you are wrong but I would point out that guys like Cam Newton, Alex Smith, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNab and Steve Young learned with some experience. (Note: two of those guys played with Andy Reid.) Some like Robert Griffin had 5 years to learn and did not, he is now out of the league. And actually Kyle designed an offense to allow him to use his present skills why trying to learn to play QB. He went to Snyder and complained. That is how Jay Gruden got here and he declared him unfixable.

I won't say Lamar Jackson can't play. Maybe he can. I agree he needs a coach that will work with the skills he has and I wouldn't trade multiple picks to acquire him.

 

[Sharkinva]

I won't say Lamar Jackson can't play. Maybe he can. I agree he needs a coach that will work with the skills he has and I wouldn't trade multiple picks to acquire him.

The problem with Jackson, or really any of these rookies is going to be expectations. How many times have we seen posters around here proclaim well if Cousins was just more talented... Or look at what Dallas did with Dak in his rookie year. Or what Philly did this year. And I can envision Snyder and Bruce thinking along the same lines. All we need is our own version of Dak, or Wentz or pick your flashy young QB.

What happens if we make the move to replace Kirk... and we DONT all of a sudden become this years version of the Eagles?? Gruden is gone, insert new coach, and once again we are back to full on rebuild mode. After 20 years of Snyder, we sort of have a direction.... To me the rookie QB is just another dart at the map saying lets go there, only we have no idea once again where we are starting out from.

 

[Sportster 72]

Yeah I was talking about Lamar Jackson not the Redskins but otherwise I agree.

 

[Sharkinva]

ON that Lamar thing in general... I think he has some talent, and will be able to play. But get him in the right situation. Kinda why I would be OK with Allen as our pick... I think he is the type of QB Gruden could improve on.

I think Jackson, and possibly Mayfield would frustrate him more than any thing.

 

[j_y19]

The problem with Jackson, or really any of these rookies is going to be expectations. How many times have we seen posters around here proclaim well if Cousins was just more talented... Or look at what Dallas did with Dak in his rookie year. Or what Philly did this year. And I can envision Snyder and Bruce thinking along the same lines. All we need is our own version of Dak, or Wentz or pick your flashy young QB.

What happens if we make the move to replace Kirk... and we DONT all of a sudden become this years version of the Eagles?? Gruden is gone, insert new coach, and once again we are back to full on rebuild mode. After 20 years of Snyder, we sort of have a direction.... To me the rookie QB is just another dart at the map saying lets go there, only we have no idea once again where we are starting out from.

This is such an important point and what those of the “I like Cousins, but he doesn’t deserve top money” don’t understand or appreciate. To pay Cousins a few million more over the course of 3-5 years is way cheaper than starting over. And as you have pointed out, if we lose Cousins, we are most likely starting over. I see no way a rookie come in here and is successful right away. He has no threatening WR corps or a running game. I also see Colt as a huge drop off.
So if you really are just concern with amount KC will earn, you need to think about the cascading effect of losing your only franchise QB.

 

[richig07]

remember in the off season you called me crazy for thinking the 49ers could of gotten KC for a 1st and 2nd or 2 1sts? Well now they gave up a 2nd for Grap. So was S.Thomas worth more than getting KC in a trade? I don't think so. You mean to tell me that Allen would of turned down the 2nd overall pick in the draft plus a 2018 2nd rounder for KC?

Now there is a strong chance that we could get nothing for KC. OR have to tag him again for huge money. Yes there is a possibility for a long term deal. I still think we should have approached the 49ers in the offseason. Im shocked Kyle didnt offer anything. Is everyone confident that a long term deal will get done?

Uh... Who says you would have gotten something for KC, if you were willing to offer SF that deal? Pretty steep price, and I don't know that Lynch would have paid it.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

ON that Lamar thing in general... I think he has some talent, and will be able to play. But get him in the right situation. Kinda why I would be OK with Allen as our pick... I think he is the type of QB Gruden could improve on.

I think Jackson, and possibly Mayfield would frustrate him more than any thing.

Reports now coming out that there is a good chance that Jackson stays in school so that may not even be a possibility.

 

[Sharkinva]

Reports now coming out that there is a good chance that Jackson stays in school so that may not even be a possibility.

Can you feel the level of disappointment in my soul over the possibility we might not be able to get Jackson after all. Next you will tell me Han Solo died.

 

[skinsdad62]

for a guy who "doesnt like " jackson you damn sure spend multiple pages in multiple threads defending him

 

[Sportster 72]

Yesterday Cooley and Kevin had on an ex-agent. I also listened to Cooley and Riggo this morning. Snow does wonders ... the agents take is only Cleveland and the Jets have enough ready cap room. Anyone else would have to do some creative financing.

Rumor around here since yesterday is Denver has let Cousin's people know they are very interested. Who knows if if I am Ian Sportster or not.

One of the tags allows them to keep tagging Cousin's but at a 20% raise each year. Can't remember which one, I am easily distracted. (did you see the hiney on that girl!!)

Most all think the exclusive tag is too much.

So here is a scenario (not my preference)
Denver gives the Skins their 1 an 4 for Cousin's
The Skins trade their 1 and possibly another pick for a veteran QB. Which one?
It would give you two No. 1s allowing you to get two players or as shark would say a Dan and Bruce type QB.
For the record the QBs the agent named were in his opinion not as good as Cousin's such as Alex Smith.
Oh he also compared Cousin's to Matt Ryan.

 

[Stymietee]

The problem with Jackson, or really any of these rookies is going to be expectations. How many times have we seen posters around here proclaim well if Cousins was just more talented... Or look at what Dallas did with Dak in his rookie year. Or what Philly did this year. And I can envision Snyder and Bruce thinking along the same lines. All we need is our own version of Dak, or Wentz or pick your flashy young QB.

What happens if we make the move to replace Kirk... and we DONT all of a sudden become this years version of the Eagles?? Gruden is gone, insert new coach, and once again we are back to full on rebuild mode. After 20 years of Snyder, we sort of have a direction.... To me the rookie QB is just another dart at the map saying lets go there, only we have no idea once again where we are starting out from.

How long will folks continue to torture themselves by wanting to believe that, this time, things will be different? Snyder has owned the team for nearly 18 years now, back to full rebuild mode is the one thing that we all can consistently count upon with his teams and yet, year after year there's an attempt to resuscitate hope.

Sty out......

 

[skinsdad62]

Football Jenks: Get with it and support Kirk Cousins

truth

 

[Sportster 72]

How long will folks continue to torture themselves by wanting to believe that, this time, things will be different? Snyder has owned the team for nearly 18 years now, back to full rebuild mode is the one thing that we all can consistently count upon with his teams and yet, year after year there's an attempt to resuscitate hope.

Sty out......

Not sure if they keep Cousin's that they will seriously improve. It is in the water .... water = Dan

 

[Stymietee]

I know that is one of your talking points Sty and I won't say you are wrong but I would point out that guys like Cam Newton, Alex Smith, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNab and Steve Young learned with some experience. (Note: two of those guys played with Andy Reid.) Some like Robert Griffin had 5 years to learn and did not, he is now out of the league. And actually Kyle designed an offense to allow him to use his present skills why trying to learn to play QB. He went to Snyder and complained. That is how Jay Gruden got here and he declared him unfixable.

I won't say Lamar Jackson can't play. Maybe he can. I agree he needs a coach that will work with the skills he has and I wouldn't trade multiple picks to acquire him.

OK, but let's at least be factual here. Alex Smith was his generation's version of Jason Campbell, changing OC's every year for 6 years. Initially, Randall Cunningham was a back-up to Ron Jaworski, Donovan McNabb was 1999's version of Deshaun Watson (he too sat at first, granted a short time but he did sit) Steve Young, earned some of his chops as a USFL player, deemed a bust in his first attempt as a starter then, (now this is important) sat and learned before becoming the player that we all now know him to have been. In as much as Cam Newton is concerned, dude is special in that he brings the size of an NFL linebacker and therefore an ability to absorb hits. He too benefitted from extra training, remember the 2011 NFL lockout? Well, during the 2011 NFL lockout, he spent up to 12 hours a day at the IMG Madden Football Academy in Bradenton, Florida, spending up to two hours per day doing one-on-one training with fellow Heisman Trophy winner and ex-Panthers quarterback Chris Weinke


I don't really care about Lamar Jackson either, the points that I'm making have nothing specifically to do with him or any one player in particular other than doing something that increases the rate of success instead of continuing what's known to fail at extremely high rates.

 

[Stymietee]

Not sure if they keep Cousin's that they will seriously improve. It is in the water .... water = Dan

Well, statistically, the team is due a big win, but after that...........

 

[Sharkinva]

OK, but let's at least be factual here. Alex Smith was his generation's version of Jason Campbell, changing OC's every year for 6 years. Initially, Randall Cunningham was a back-up to Ron Jaworski, Donovan McNabb was 1999's version of Deshaun Watson (he too sat at first, granted a short time but he did sit) Steve Young, earned some of his chops as a USFL player, deemed a bust in his first attempt as a starter then, (now this is important) sat and learned before becoming the player that we all now know him to have been. In as much as Cam Newton is concerned, dude is special in that he brings the size of an NFL linebacker and therefore an ability to absorb hits. He too benefitted from extra training, remember the 2011 NFL lockout? Well, during the 2011 NFL lockout, he spent up to 12 hours a day at the IMG Madden Football Academy in Bradenton, Florida, spending up to two hours per day doing one-on-one training with fellow Heisman Trophy winner and ex-Panthers quarterback Chris Weinke


I don't really care about Lamar Jackson either, the points that I'm making have nothing specifically to do with him or any one player in particular other than doing something that increases the rate of success instead of continuing what's known to fail at extremely high rates.

So Im going to ask a question here. What position draws the line?? If we are going to sit a QB drafted in the first round, and have him play make learn... What about a WR, RB, OT or DE?? Its great to say these QBs need to sit a year (or three) and learn to be an NFL QB. But fact of the matter is, if they are not ready to play from day one, they might not be worth the draft capitol it cost to get them. I mean thats like saying you just spent $250k on a top end sports car, but it needs a tune up before you can go out and drive it like its meant to be driven. Either these guys are worth the 1st rounder given up for them, and hence ready to start from day one... or they were over drafted and over rated. I happen to think the latter pertains to most that flame out.

 

[Sportster 72]

OK, but let's at least be factual here. Alex Smith was his generation's version of Jason Campbell, changing OC's every year for 6 years. Initially, Randall Cunningham was a back-up to Ron Jaworski, Donovan McNabb was 1999's version of Deshaun Watson (he too sat at first, granted a short time but he did sit) Steve Young, earned some of his chops as a USFL player, deemed a bust in his first attempt as a starter then, (now this is important) sat and learned before becoming the player that we all now know him to have been. In as much as Cam Newton is concerned, dude is special in that he brings the size of an NFL linebacker and therefore an ability to absorb hits. He too benefitted from extra training, remember the 2011 NFL lockout? Well, during the 2011 NFL lockout, he spent up to 12 hours a day at the IMG Madden Football Academy in Bradenton, Florida, spending up to two hours per day doing one-on-one training with fellow Heisman Trophy winner and ex-Panthers quarterback Chris Weinke


I don't really care about Lamar Jackson either, the points that I'm making have nothing specifically to do with him or any one player in particular other than doing something that increases the rate of success instead of continuing what's known to fail at extremely high rates.

I was factual, you can accept or not. That part is up to you. As far as I am concerned I made some good points and I said I don't totally disagree with you. Big money caused QBs to start early. Back when they made a dollar two 98 you could let them learn. Owners don't want to pay millions to have a guy learn how to be an NFL QB.