State of the Team

[SFGRTB]

Somebody will pay in prospects and take the contract. Look at Hamels going to Texas a couple years back...

I disagree. I don't see that happening at all. The bidding war will be how much of his salary teams will take on. Marlins will get their prospects through guys like Ozuna, Yelich, Ramos, Realmuto, Gordon, etc., they won't worry about getting prospects for Stanton because they know they can't.

For Hamels, it's still basically a 3-year deal they acquired (potentially a 4, but it's a team option). You're talking about a potentially 10 year deal. 3 if you're lucky. (Texas vastly overpaid, there's no denying that)

 

[SFGRTB]

Question...

Assuming the Giants get Stanton, and Miami pays half the contract, does the contract still count 100% against the Giants tax level?

No, it's the average annual value of whatever the teams agreed to split

 

[calsnowskier]

No, it's the average annual value of whatever the teams agreed to split

So if the fish agree to cover 50%, both teams take a 15M tax-cap hit each year?

 

[SFGRTB]

So if the fish agree to cover 50%, both teams take a 15M tax-cap hit each year?

That's my understanding. And it would be more like $13.4M per year. I think

 

[Stokes1931]

Giancarlo Stanton-to-Giants rumor is fun...until you look at his contract

 

[calsnowskier]

Giancarlo Stanton-to-Giants rumor is fun...until you look at his contract

Ok, you found me out...

I am Pavs...

 

[Stokes1931]

Pre-ASB

Giants gave up 5.033 runs per game, and scored an anemic 3.933 runs per game

Post-ASB

Giants have given up 5.375 runs per game, and scored an even more anemic 3.75 runs per game

Not a good trend, unless we get the top draft pick.

Starters ERAs

Bum: 3.57 (6.72 innings per start)
Blach: 4.36 (6.22 innings per start)
Cueto: 4.59 (6.09 innings per start)
Scrabble: 5.05 (6.42 innings per start)
Cain: 5.49 (5.35 innings per start)
Moore: 5.81 (5.54 innings per start)

 

[calsnowskier]

The Giants appear to be convinced that they still have a championship-caliber team, with only a few minor tweaks needed between now and the beginning of 2018 to realize their true ability. But is that a valid opinion?

Maintaining a championship team is hard for a number of reasons. First, the players get EXPENSIVE, so it it hard to keep them together and/add pieces as needed. Second, winning means picking lower in the draft, so it is harder to replenish from within. Third (and maybe most important), the players get satisfied. Hunger is an amazing motivator. Look at the Cubs this year. They don't have the same drive they had last year. Talent-wise, they are right up there with the dogs and 'stros. But they cant maintain any momentum.

So what should the Giants do?

Tweaking will require either cash or prospects. The Giants are right up against the tax/ceiling, so basically, they don't have anything to make a splash in FA. So that means the cost needs to come in prospects. Who does that mean? Shaw? Beede? Arroyo? Suarez? Duggar? Ramos? Can any of those guys headline a package for an established star that doesn't break the $$ limits on the team? I am not sure. Shaw looks good, but his numbers this year are not door-kicking good. Arroyo fell on his face in the show, and has been hurt since. Beede has been very up and down this year. Ramos is too young to get appropriate value.

I just don't see the Giants being set up appropriately for a serious run in 18/19. But this FO simply does not have the DNA to be able to do a tear-down.

Gentlemen, put on your seat belts. We are in for a rough ride over the next few years.

 

[stanford the manford]

The Giants appear to be convinced that they still have a championship-caliber team, with only a few minor tweaks needed between now and the beginning of 2018 to realize their true ability. But is that a valid opinion?

Maintaining a championship team is hard for a number of reasons. First, the players get EXPENSIVE, so it it hard to keep them together and/add pieces as needed. Second, winning means picking lower in the draft, so it is harder to replenish from within. Third (and maybe most important), the players get satisfied. Hunger is an amazing motivator. Look at the Cubs this year. They don't have the same drive they had last year. Talent-wise, they are right up there with the dogs and 'stros. But they cant maintain any momentum.

So what should the Giants do?

Tweaking will require either cash or prospects. The Giants are right up against the tax/ceiling, so basically, they don't have anything to make a splash in FA. So that means the cost needs to come in prospects. Who does that mean? Shaw? Beede? Arroyo? Suarez? Duggar? Ramos? Can any of those guys headline a package for an established star that doesn't break the $$ limits on the team? I am not sure. Shaw looks good, but his numbers this year are not door-kicking good. Arroyo fell on his face in the show, and has been hurt since. Beede has been very up and down this year. Ramos is too young to get appropriate value.

I just don't see the Giants being set up appropriately for a serious run in 18/19. But this FO simply does not have the DNA to be able to do a tear-down.

Gentlemen, put on your seat belts. We are in for a rough ride over the next few years.

the front office needs the stupid slapped out of them

 

[msgkings322]

the front office needs the stupid slapped out of them

I guess as '10-'12-'14 fades farther into the rear view mirror, we will all start to get more and more angry at the front office. But let's remember that at season's start most of us saw a wild card team here. The front office is as surprised as we are that: Crawford can't hit, Cueto can't keep the blisters away, MadBum likes dirt bikes, Moore and Samardzija are terrible awful pitchers, Melancon isn't much better, etc. About the only thing foreseeable about this shitfest of a year is Pence finally getting old and useless. I don't really blame the FO for this year.

Now, how they handle things for next year will be on them.

 

[Pattersonca65]

The Giants appear to be convinced that they still have a championship-caliber team, with only a few minor tweaks needed between now and the beginning of 2018 to realize their true ability. But is that a valid opinion?

Maintaining a championship team is hard for a number of reasons. First, the players get EXPENSIVE, so it it hard to keep them together and/add pieces as needed. Second, winning means picking lower in the draft, so it is harder to replenish from within. Third (and maybe most important), the players get satisfied. Hunger is an amazing motivator. Look at the Cubs this year. They don't have the same drive they had last year. Talent-wise, they are right up there with the dogs and 'stros. But they cant maintain any momentum.

So what should the Giants do?

Tweaking will require either cash or prospects. The Giants are right up against the tax/ceiling, so basically, they don't have anything to make a splash in FA. So that means the cost needs to come in prospects. Who does that mean? Shaw? Beede? Arroyo? Suarez? Duggar? Ramos? Can any of those guys headline a package for an established star that doesn't break the $$ limits on the team? I am not sure. Shaw looks good, but his numbers this year are not door-kicking good. Arroyo fell on his face in the show, and has been hurt since. Beede has been very up and down this year. Ramos is too young to get appropriate value.

I just don't see the Giants being set up appropriately for a serious run in 18/19. But this FO simply does not have the DNA to be able to do a tear-down.

Gentlemen, put on your seat belts. We are in for a rough ride over the next few years.

I would start with Bill Parcell's line. You are what your record says you are. And since last midseason it has been pretty bad. And I don't think it can be explained by missing Bumgardner, etc. The team might not have to be completely blown up, but I am not sure a couple of tweaks are going to cut it. Will the offense and bullpen get better with most of the same cast next year? IDK, I kind of doubt it.

 

[msgkings322]

I would start with Bill Parcell's line. You are what your record says you are. And since last midseason it has been pretty bad. And I don't think it can be explained by missing Bumgardner, etc. The team might not have to be completely blown up, but I am not sure a couple of tweaks are going to cut it. Will the offense and bullpen get better with most of the same cast next year? IDK, I kind of doubt it.

The pen isn't as.much an issue as the starters. Cueto I can see coming back pretty well if he fixes the blisters. Not sure why we can expect Moore and Samardjiza to not suck

 

[calsnowskier]

I expect the bully to be rather good next year. A back end of Smith/Dyson and Melancon is about as good as it gets. Fill in the other 4 spots with Struck/Gearrin/Law/etc and I think you should be able remove it from the liability column.

As for starters, Bum and Cueto should be a decent 1/2 punch. Moore HAS to improve (logically, he can't be any worse) and Sammy and Blach are, at worst, decent inning eaters. Not the elite staff we thought we had coming into this season, but certain mid pack at least, with 2 MLB-ready arms in Sacto.

The offense is a hot mess. And we just don't have the chips to improve it, IMHO. Posey is a stud, but when looking at the bat, is really best suited to the 2 or 6 spots. As a 3, he really is wanting. Craw is good, but he is defensive-minded, and really is more of an asset in the 7 or 8 slot. Panik is fine in the 2 or 7 spots. 3B and all 3 OF spots should be completely open to competition at this point.

 

[Stokes1931]

I expect the bully to be rather good next year. A back end of Smith/Dyson and Melancon is about as good as it gets. Fill in the other 4 spots with Struck/Gearrin/Law/etc and I think you should be able remove it from the liability column.

As for starters, Bum and Cueto should be a decent 1/2 punch. Moore HAS to improve (logically, he can't be any worse) and Sammy and Blach are, at worst, decent inning eaters. Not the elite staff we thought we had coming into this season, but certain mid pack at least, with 2 MLB-ready arms in Sacto.

The offense is a hot mess. And we just don't have the chips to improve it, IMHO. Posey is a stud, but when looking at the bat, is really best suited to the 2 or 6 spots. As a 3, he really is wanting. Craw is good, but he is defensive-minded, and really is more of an asset in the 7 or 8 slot. Panik is fine in the 2 or 7 spots. 3B and all 3 OF spots should be completely open to competition at this point.

Is it the skills or is it the approach with the offense? Under Bochy/Meulens, the team has been a grind it out, move the line, low risk/low reward offense. This is OK when the pitching is excellent, but when the pitching is anything other than excellent, this is a losing approach. The rest of baseball has moved on to high risk/high reward power baseball. I believe that the Giants have more 1 run innings than any team in baseball. The ability to hit with RISP has been sorely lacking the last few years. So while we need an upgrade especially in the OF (Pence needs to become a part time player pronto), I do wonder whether the Giants' org needs to retool their offensive approach. Because this isn't working. Last year, the Giants scored 715 runs, which was as much as it was because of the first half. This season, they are on pace for 633 runs, an 82 run decrease!

 

[calsnowskier]

I enjoy watching the grind-it-out style of play more than the Bash-Brothers style of play. But unfortunately, the league offices like the long ball, and they have played with the equipment in the game to insure they get it. And in that environment, the small-ball game simply doesn't play.

If the Giants want to compete in this physics-version of the game, they have to change the focus from pitching, defense, fundamentals to "Me Mongo. Me hit ball far".

It is sad, but I fear it is reality.

 

[calsnowskier]

I have no idea if this was based on a rumor or him just talking out of his ass as he does a lot, but Fitz just said that the Giants are trying to package Cueto and Nunez together so they are not stuck with Cueto after he likely opts in.

 

[Stokes1931]

I enjoy watching the grind-it-out style of play more than the Bash-Brothers style of play. But unfortunately, the league offices like the long ball, and they have played with the equipment in the game to insure they get it. And in that environment, the small-ball game simply doesn't play.

If the Giants want to compete in this physics-version of the game, they have to change the focus from pitching, defense, fundamentals to "Me Mongo. Me hit ball far".

It is sad, but I fear it is reality.

I am not a fan of Mongo ball, either. Pitching and defense has to count for something.

But the Giants' small ball has shrunk to micro ball, and that is not a good trend.

 

[Stokes1931]

I have no idea if this was based on a rumor or him just talking out of his ass as he does a lot, but Fitz just said that the Giants are trying to package Cueto and Nunez together so they are not stuck with Cueto after he likely opts in.

Fitz talking out his arse?!? Say it isn't so!

 

[SFGRTB]

I have no idea if this was based on a rumor or him just talking out of his ass as he does a lot, but Fitz just said that the Giants are trying to package Cueto and Nunez together so they are not stuck with Cueto after he likely opts in.

Probably ass talk. Who the heck is Fitz in contact with in MLB?

Nah, Cueto's value is unfortunately gone. Even though it's just a blister, they keep popping up so teams won't want to deal with it. There's still a chance he leaves in an August trade, but the chances of him going now are less than 1% probably.

And Shark sure picked a shit time to revert to shit.

The Giants are doomed to mediocrity for a couple of years until they will ultimately decide to go full rebuild. I'm not usually the cynic, but damn it's tough not to be right now.

 

[LHG]

Probably ass talk. Who the heck is Fitz in contact with in MLB?

Nah, Cueto's value is unfortunately gone. Even though it's just a blister, they keep popping up so teams won't want to deal with it. There's still a chance he leaves in an August trade, but the chances of him going now are less than 1% probably.

And Shark sure picked a shit time to revert to shit.

The Giants are doomed to mediocrity for a couple of years until they will ultimately decide to go full rebuild. I'm not usually the cynic, but damn it's tough not to be right now.

It is hard to not be cynical about this team. I try to counter my pessimism with the thought that if they got this bad this fast (who saw that coming?) then maybe they can get really good really fast too. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is a good way to think if the person thinking it is the GM of the organization.