For all you Lebron Haters

[BallsOfFurry]

I'm not sure Lebron has been on a team that could have beaten any of those Celtic champions, or those 2 Bad Boy Piston title winners either, I can't say either way. I don't know that either his Miami teams or Cleveland teams could get past any of The Bulls' title winners, those would have been tough series for any team.
He has won 3 of 7 finals against good to great competition though.
He has won enough and been dominant enough in winning to pass the Barkleys and Malones in securing his rightful spot on the short list of elite of the elite though.

 

[SJ76]

^^ 4:00 mark

 

[BallsOfFurry]

And you're making it sound like they're almost equal!

Like I said earlier, take lebron out of the picture and the West wins the finals 4-0 for a long time. Are you going to deny that?

All but one champion in the past 40 years has had at least 1 of the 50 greatest all time players, so yes, it's critical. That said, Lebron has had Wade and Irving, and 2 other near to great players aiding him to go 3-3 when having strong supporting rosters. The only weak roster he carried to a finals' birth was his first one in Cleveland.

 

[flyerhawk]

And you're making it sound like they're almost equal!

Like I said earlier, take lebron out of the picture and the West wins the finals 4-0 for a long time. Are you going to deny that?

I am going to deny that because it is a counter-factual. If Lebron James isn't in the East the entire structure of the East changes.

Look at the head to records of the 2 conferences year over year. They are more or less .500. The biggest difference is that the Spurs are always really good no matter what players they have.

I don't think the Rockets are notably better than the Celtics.

You swap the Cavs and the Warriors and you would have the same finals.

 

[SJ76]

I honestly believe that Lebron could play any position and play it exceedingly well.

I would LOVE to see Lebron play PG in the 80s/90s against full court ball pressure like Pippen or the Glove or even Rodman would throw at you. He can bring up the ball today but look at the defense.. There is none until April.

 

[trojanfan12]

You say that but Magic played center in the NBA finals. Scored 42 points and nabbed 15 rebounds. I don't think that Lebron could consistently play center because it would wear him down, I agree with that. But he could play that position without question.

Magic played Center 1 game in his career and he didn't play it for the entire game. He played all 5 poisitions at one point or another during that game. And the bold is the exact point I made. Sure, Lebron could have played center in spurts, but that wasn't my point (although I may not have made it that clear).

Certainly Lebron would have needed a good coach. That's why I thought of the Knicks. I think Pat Riley would have figured out how to maximize his freakish abilities.

The only problem is that by the time he got to the NBA, his style of play would have already been set. Riley may have found ways to expand his game, but i don't think it would have expanded to the point of him being the player he is today.

See one Riley, Pat.

Pat Riley wasn't the reason Magic played point guard. He wasn't even Magic's first NBA coach. Magic had played point guard since at least high school. Then it was continued at Michigan St. (if memory serves, part of the reason he picked Michigan St. was because some of the other schools recruiting him wanted to change his position) so he came in to the NBA as a point guard.

 

[flyerhawk]

I'm not sure Lebron has been on a team that could have beaten any of those Celtic champions, or those 2 Bad Boy Piston title winners either, I can't say either way. I don't know that either his Miami teams or Cleveland teams could get past any of The Bulls' title winners, those would have been tough series for any team.
He has won 3 of 7 finals against good to great competition though.
He has won enough and been dominant enough in winning to pass the Barkleys and Malones in securing his rightful spot on the short list of elite of the elite though.

It's hard to transplant teams to different eras because the game is so fundamentally different.

In 1985 the Dallas Mavericks led the league with 443 3 point attempts. That's about 2/3rds of a Steph Curry season today.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

I am going to deny that because it is a counter-factual. If Lebron James isn't in the East the entire structure of the East changes.

Look at the head to records of the 2 conferences year over year. They are more or less .500. The biggest difference is that the Spurs are always really good no matter what players they have.

I don't think the Rockets are notably better than the Celtics.

You swap the Cavs and the Warriors and you would have the same finals.

Firstly, the record is 6-4 in favour of the West, so "more or less .500" is bullshit

Secondly, no way the cavs make the finals year after year if they were in the West. Hell, even the Clippers would take them to at least 6 games if they met in the first round, let alone the Rockets or Spurs.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I would LOVE to see Lebron play PG in the 80s/90s against full court ball pressure like Pippen or the Glove or even Rodman would throw at you. He can bring up the ball today but look at the defense.. There is none until April.

I think defense is better today overall. The one exception is what is allowed today verses what was allowed then, especially in the playoffs. Magic's famous ''no layups'' rule from the 80s would get entire starting lineups tossed today. Larry Bird got thrown to the mat more times than one of Ted Turner's wrasslers.

 

[trojanfan12]

Not only that, but the big man was all the rage in the 90's. Lebron MAY have been in the Malone, Robinson, Barkley role of being a big, post man that just so happened to have the ability to handle the ball. I don't think he would of been the Lebron that we've come to know now

Agree. That's the thing that some folks don't seem to understand. In that era, it was all about the bigs. With Lebron's size and strength, that's exactly what the vast majority of coaches would have wanted to do with him.

He'd still be an all time great and HoF'er, imo, but I doubt he'd be the same guy we see today.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

It's hard to transplant teams to different eras because the game is so fundamentally different.

In 1985 the Dallas Mavericks led the league with 443 3 point attempts. That's about 2/3rds of a Steph Curry season today.

Very true, even then you couldn't foul on jump shots without it getting called. Curry would have taken a beating on his drives to the basket though.

 

[SJ76]

I think defense is better today overall. The one exception is what is allowed today verses what was allowed then, especially in the playoffs. Magic's famous ''no layups'' rule from the 80s would get entire starting lineups tossed today. Larry Bird got thrown to the mat more times than one of Ted Turner's wrasslers.

How is defense better today when the best team in the East finished 2nd because they didn't play any defense until the playoffs? Cleveland just recently turned on their defense. They didn't play much all year because their leader didn't play defense.

You see Lebron on the NBA all defense team this year? Last year? Year before that?

 

[flyerhawk]

I would LOVE to see Lebron play PG in the 80s/90s against full court ball pressure like Pippen or the Glove or even Rodman would throw at you. He can bring up the ball today but look at the defense.. There is none until April.

There has never been a player in NBA history that could guard Lebron one on one.

Teams weren't allowed to play zone in the 90s. They can today, so they play zone. There is a reason for that.

 

[trojanfan12]

Isn't that what this whole conversation is about? Not a single person is questioning lebrons quality as a player.

His success however, especially his finals appearances, has everything to do with a weakened conference.

You know how it is with some of these Lebroniacs and Cavs fans...if you dare say anything other than Lebron is just the dreamiest and most bestest ever...you're a hater.

 

[flyerhawk]

Very true, even then you couldn't foul on jump shots without it getting called. Curry would have taken a beating on his drives to the basket though.

The thing with Curry is that he has such a deadly and super quick jump shot that it is really hard to wait for him to drive the lane. He will eat your lunch. Of course the hand check would have really hindered his game but the 1990s NBA wouldn't know what to do with a guy that shot 10 3s a game at a 50% rate.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Agree. That's the thing that some folks don't seem to understand. In that era, it was all about the bigs. With Lebron's size and strength, that's exactly what the vast majority of coaches would have wanted to do with him.

He'd still be an all time great and HoF'er, imo, but I doubt he'd be the same guy we see today.

Bird is the closest approximation to Lebron's power, size and skill set in my opinion. Bird was longer and a far better shooter though and Lebron is a better overall athlete.
He might be just as affective in the 80s or 90s, even if he went about things a bit differently, he's versatile enough to dominate in many ways.

 

[SJ76]

There has never been a player in NBA history that could guard Lebron one on one.

Teams weren't allowed to play zone in the 90s. They can today, so they play zone. There is a reason for that.

You said Lebron playing PG in the 80s 90s. Different kind of ball pressure and defense back then. More physical to say the least.

Lebron is very tough to guard, but no one really zones anyone in the NBA for too long. Too many good shooters and all you have to do is move the ball quick. Kwani and Jimmy B can check Lebron about as good as anyone in the league - but no one can stop him. Hell the entire Bad Boys Piston teams would physically abuse MJ and could still score plenty and finally got over the hump.

The NBA today is so top heavy and watered down. Look at what's going on in the playoffs.

 

[flyerhawk]

You know how it is with some of these Lebroniacs and Cavs fans...if you dare say anything other than Lebron is just the dreamiest and most bestest ever...you're a hater.

Pretty far from a Cavs fan. Or even a Lebron fan. I like Curry and KD more than Lebron.

But I can also recognize greatness.

 

[RobBase]

"Now I'm ready." - Lebron

 

[SJ76]

The thing with Curry is that he has such a deadly and super quick jump shot that it is really hard to wait for him to drive the lane. He will eat your lunch. Of course the hand check would have really hindered his game but the 1990s NBA wouldn't know what to do with a guy that shot 10 3s a game at a 50% rate.

Gary Payton would man handle Steph Curry. Perimeter D back then was totally different