Zimmerman Part Two

[TobyTyler]

JMO, I can't see him getting off of this. Why isn't this in the politics area?

Also, I hate having to not only listen to people's vile music but also feel it. If I were an electrical engineer, I would love to make a small EMP that has a radius of 10' and use it....often.

Ha ha! I hear you.

 

[TobyTyler]

Your problem in all of these cases, is you take the side of the shooter because the person getting shot didn't understand that he could get shot by not doing what an entitled idiot says he should do. You never hold the shooter accountable for failing to avoid situations where someone can get shot.

You feed off all this white vs black sensationalist bullshit. You love building up stories of thugs and "everyday men" who take them off this earth. You live in a John Wayne fantasy land. These shootings aren't reasonable in any fashion, but you love your heroes. Even though you say he isn't one that hasn't stopped you from building up your stories.

The entitled idiot was the thug who wouldn't turn his music down. There are social norms that must be adhered to. You can't force your absurd music on everyone around you. That's what the thugs have Beats for. I must admit that when a regular person takes down a thug, I like it.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Maybe not, but pulling it out and pointing at someone will get you shot.

Could get you shot. And pulling out and pointing a concealed handgun at someone could get you shot.

Again, the distinction you have made between the thug and the everyman is clearly not based on the gun. I think everyone on this board knows the real heart of the distinction you're drawing between the two. You may as well just come out and say it.

 

[TobyTyler]

According to RoboticDreams I can.

But you "can't" do something like that because it is against the law. We have people who are responsible for enforcing the laws: trained and sworn law enforcement officers. I am not interested in a society in which armed vigilantes go about enforcing local ordinances or the rules at commercial establishments with lethal force. If that's your idea of an ideal - or even acceptable - civilization, good luck with it.

I don't think he was going around trying to enforce the law. I think, like a normal civil person, he asked them to turn the music down hoping the guy would do the right thing. Probably felt he didn't need to involve the police. Probably wasn't expecting the thug to pull a shot gun on him.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

From all reports, both the victim here and the one in the theater were confronted by the shooters.

No. They were asked to tone down their antics, the thug and the dude in the theater then chose to escalate it.

You say no, but then you confirm what I said. In both cases, the shooter confronted the person who was engaged in rude or selfish conduct. The "shooted" may very well have escalated, but you didn't say escalated. You said confronted.

And thus crumbles your poorly constructed argument about confronting people getting you shot. Not that I dispute that, it's just not what happened here. Part of why I see very little reason why the shooters should not face significant prison time in these cases.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The entitled idiot was the thug who wouldn't turn his music down. There are social norms that must be adhered to. You can't force your absurd music on everyone around you. That's what the thugs have Beats for. I must admit that when a regular person takes down a thug, I like it.

Yes, you can. Particularly if you are not violating a law. Being confronted with a selfish, self-centered, or annoying person is not justification to take a life in my book. It shouldn't be in anyone's book, though it's fairly clear I value life more highly than you.

 

[TobyTyler]

You say no, but then you confirm what I said. In both cases, the shooter confronted the person who was engaged in rude or selfish conduct. The "shooted" may very well have escalated, but you didn't say escalated. You said confronted.

And thus crumbles your poorly constructed argument about confronting people getting you shot. Not that I dispute that, it's just not what happened here. Part of why I see very little reason why the shooters should not face significant prison time in these cases.

I don't think asking someone to turn their outrageously loud music down is being confrontational. I think some of these thugs purposely play it loud hoping to start something when a normal person asks them to turn it down. That is where the confrontation begins.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I don't think asking someone to turn their outrageously loud music down is being confrontational. I think some of these thugs purposely play it loud hoping to start something when a normal person asks them to turn it down. That is where the confrontation begins.

Playing music loudly is not confrontational. It is perhaps antagonistic, but confrontation requires an element of directness that playing loud music in a parking lot simply doesn't meet. Much less texting in a movie theater.

Confront - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

If you walk up to someone and ask/tell them to turn down their music, you are confronting them. If that's not what you meant, fine. Pick another word. We already know you're a hypocrite. Please don't exacerbate that by misconstruing the definition of of a word simply to fit your incorrect statement.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The entitled idiot was the thug who wouldn't turn his music down. There are social norms that must be adhered to. You can't force your absurd music on everyone around you. That's what the thugs have Beats for. I must admit that when a regular person takes down a thug, I like it.

Btw, am I to take it that you don't have a problem with forcing music you don't find absurd on others?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I don't think he was going around trying to enforce the law. I think, like a normal civil person, he asked them to turn the music down hoping the guy would do the right thing. Probably felt he didn't need to involve the police. Probably wasn't expecting the thug to pull a shot gun on him.

And there's the first part of your problem. You don't know anything. You are making tons of assumptions in favor of the older white male shooter, and tons of assumptions against the young black male victim. To the surprise of no one.

 

[TobyTyler]

Yes, you can. Particularly if you are not violating a law. Being confronted with a selfish, self-centered, or annoying person is not justification to take a life in my book. It shouldn't be in anyone's book, though it's fairly clear I value life more highly than you.

There are laws against being a public nuisance and I'm sure the thugs in the van with their blaring "music" would have been termed as such if the police had been called. So, no, you can't. The shooter did not take the thug's life because his music was too loud, he took it because the thug pulled a shotgun on him.

 

[TobyTyler]

Playing music loudly is not confrontational. It is perhaps antagonistic, but confrontation requires an element of directness that playing loud music in a parking lot simply doesn't meet. Much less texting in a movie theater.

Confront - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

If you walk up to someone and ask/tell them to turn down their music, you are confronting them. If that's not what you meant, fine. Pick another word. We already know you're a hypocrite. Please don't exacerbate that by misconstruing the definition of of a word simply to fit your incorrect statement.

Agreed; pulling a shotgun for example. Asking someone to turn their music down is not necessarily "confronting" them. Depends on how he did it.

 

[TobyTyler]

Btw, am I to take it that you don't have a problem with forcing music you don't find absurd on others?

Of course I do. If my music is bothering people and they asked me to turn it down, I would do so immediately, with an apology; any reasonable person would.

 

[joshuar56]

you can not shoot and kill someone because they are texting during the movie theater; the man could of just as easily gotten up and moved. Also, the guy who got shot I believe was also white and was texting his daughter. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

I can answer that last part. He's really really really stupid. Not worth wasting your time engaging him. You can't argue with stupid.

 

[TobyTyler]

And there's the first part of your problem. You don't know anything. You are making tons of assumptions in favor of the older white male shooter, and tons of assumptions against the young black male victim. To the surprise of no one.

Experience. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

 

[MHSL82]

I don't think asking someone to turn their outrageously loud music down is being confrontational. I think some of these thugs purposely play it loud hoping to start something when a normal person asks them to turn it down. That is where the confrontation begins.

They should make it an ordinance to not play your music too softly. Then those thugs would have been playing really low just to piss us off. Instigation is just in their blood.

(For the literal police, that was a literal/serious.)

 

[NinerSickness]

You people realize NN is currently jerking off to all the replies he baited you into posting right?

 

[MHSL82]

You people realize NN is currently jerking off to all the replies he baited you into posting right?

Including this one. And this one. It's like that hydra that grows to head for everyone you cut off. It's like the person who will accuse the other of only wanting to have the last word when the accuser is trying to have the last word by doing so. Telling someone to shut up so you can have a last word.

 

[RoboticDreams]

According to RoboticDreams I can.

But you "can't" do something like that because it is against the law. We have people who are responsible for enforcing the laws: trained and sworn law enforcement officers. I am not interested in a society in which armed vigilantes go about enforcing local ordinances or the rules at commercial establishments with lethal force. If that's your idea of an ideal - or even acceptable - civilization, good luck with it.

To be fair, my comment wasn't any more useless than most of the comments here. You guys are arguing yourselves into a frenzy with no foreseeable conclusion. Enjoy, though, it's entertaining...sort of.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I don't know how this is legal, but Dunn's statement (the shooter) to police is apparently on youtube.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdFDgBeIx5o]Jordan Davis - Michael Dunn Interview with Detectives (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube[/ame]

I haven't listened to the whole thing, but this is his initial account:

He pulled alongside the SUV. His girlfriend ran into the gas station. The music was loud. He rolled down his window and asked the black males in the SUV to turn down the music. They shut it off. He rolled his window up. The guy in the back of the SUV was getting agitated, using profanities ("fuck that guy," etc.). Then the music came back on. He hears "kill him." He rolled his window down again and asked if they were talking to him. They made threats. He sees a guy bend down in the back seat and grab what he thought was a shotgun. That guy starts to open his door. At that point, Dunn reached into his glove box, unholstered his gun, chambered a round, and then shot into the SUV four times.

Now, call me crazy, but if I am in a car and I think I'm in immediate danger of being shot, I'm going to floor it. According to Dunn, who has apparently been trained in firearms defense, he reached into the glove box, turning his back on the threat while doing so, unholstered a gun, removed it from the glove box, racked the slide, and turned back to face the threat. All while he was effectively pinned in the driver's seat of his relatively small (Jetta), stationary car. That's just insane. If that story is true, and those kids really did have a shotgun that they intended to use, then he's incredibly lucky he isn't the one who was killed. That maneuver would have to go down as one of the dumbest acts of self defense ever.

It's also worth noting that he picked up his GF and drove away. He never called the police, and he left the greater area of the shooting.

And incidentally, since we were talking about FL gun laws earlier, it sounds a lot like Dunn had an unsecured handgun concealed in his glove compartment, which I believe would violate that same FL statute I posted part of earlier in this thread. Don't have time to verify that right now, and it's possible there is some language in there providing for licensed concealed carry.