Why are people so down about the Ravens loss?

[deep9er]

naw no tears deep but if anybody needed that win it was alex and he got robbed of his momentum i not all in with the guy but he didn't get a fair shake in that game. no one this thread can say nine sacks happens if the refs let them play the game its just erking because that win could of had alex on cloud nine in terms of confidence and we need him like that for the playoff run i hope he comes out firing in this game just to say my oline has 4 of the 5 in the probowl race 4 a reason and this is are year and weather u like me or not im leading this team

yes, a win would've meant a LOT, not only to Alex but EVERYONE. but alas, on that day the Ravens were better.

didn't think the Refs made a big difference if at all? but if thats your opinion, no problem here.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

yes, a win would've meant a LOT, not only to Alex but EVERYONE. but alas, on that day the Ravens were better.

didn't think the Refs made a big difference if at all? but if thats your opinion, no problem here.

The Niners had every opportunity to win the game, regardless of the officials. But the chop block call was a bad one - maybe technically a violation, but a technical rule violation occurs on just about every NFL play - and that TD changes the nature of that game. No way to say who would have won if it stood, but there's absolutely no doubt that it would have made a big difference.

 

[deep9er]

The Niners had every opportunity to win the game, regardless of the officials. But the chop block call was a bad one - maybe technically a violation, but a technical rule violation occurs on just about every NFL play - and that TD changes the nature of that game. No way to say who would have won if it stood, but there's absolutely no doubt that it would have made a big difference.

you said it yourself..... "technically a violation", so if its technically correct, then it was also a correct penalty. don't get the whining about that was a 'bad call'?

next, your now trying to connect this penalty to a 'big difference' in the game? it was a correct call. btw - you TRY to connect but then hedge yourself?

if a linemen barely holds, then it shouldn't be a holding penalty? if a QB throws it away but 6 inches short of the LOS, it shouldn't be a grounding penalty? if a DL's hand is 6 inches in the LOS, then it shouldn't be an off-sides penalty?

 

[vvoland]

you said it yourself..... "technically a violation", so if its technically correct, then it was also a correct penalty. don't get the whining about that was a 'bad call'?

next, your now trying to connect this penalty to a 'big difference' in the game? it was a correct call. btw - you TRY to connect but then hedge yourself?

if a linemen barely holds, then it shouldn't be a holding penalty? if a QB throws it away but 6 inches short of the LOS, it shouldn't be a grounding penalty? if a DL's hand is 6 inches in the LOS, then it shouldn't be an off-sides penalty?

i think the point is that it was a borderline call, one that can get overlooked considering the impact it had on the play [none], and the risk to the defensive player [again, none]. i hate the fact that rachal touched the kid despite gore cleaning him up, but it's a 50/50 call, one that the niners have been on the wrong end of too many times this season. for example, i don't think there would have ANY ravens fans saying that TD needed to be brought back because of that block.

coupled with the PI call later in the game its not surprising to see fans upset that the refs had such a direct impact on the game.

 

[deep9er]

i think the point is that it was a borderline call, one that can get overlooked considering the impact it had on the play [none], and the risk to the defensive player [again, none]. i hate the fact that rachal touched the kid despite gore cleaning him up, but it's a 50/50 call, one that the niners have been on the wrong end of too many times this season. for example, i don't think there would have ANY ravens fans saying that TD needed to be brought back because of that block.

coupled with the PI call later in the game its not surprising to see fans upset that the refs had such a direct impact on the game.

its noted the call was ticky tack, but the bottom line.......a correct call. if its a correct call, then the Refs aren't 'tilting' the game.

similar with the PI on Brown, noted it wasn't a 'blatant' PI and sometimes its not called. but bottom line......on replays there was enough there to argue the PI call was correct.

my point is the degree to which the penalty occurred doesn't matter, what does matter is if its correct or not? since both were correct, then the Refs didn't make a "big" difference. again, we jump on other fans/coaches who make excuses, why are we doing it now?

 

[tzill]

its noted the call was ticky tack, but the bottom line.......a correct call. if its a correct call, then the Refs aren't 'tilting' the game.

similar with the PI on Brown, noted it wasn't a 'blatant' PI and sometimes its not called. but bottom line......on replays there was enough there to argue the PI call was correct.

my point is the degree to which the penalty occurred doesn't matter, what does matter is if its correct or not? since both were correct, then the Refs didn't make a "big" difference. again, we jump on other fans/coaches who make excuses, why are we doing it now?

If I may, and I may not have the OPs point correct: It was a judgment call. The intention of the rule is to protect players from injury that has a much higher chance of occuring from a chop block. The DL was in no danger of such an injury. Therefore, a pretty compelling argument could be made that since the intent of the rule wasn't in question, then it shouldn't have been called.

No excuses though -- the Ravens won and deserved to. It would've been a different game with the Ginn TD, though, no doubt.

 

[tzill]

This, from Cam Inman:

Although a chop-block penalty on Frank Gore nullified a 75-yard touchdown pass in Thursday’s loss at Baltimore, it did not draw a fine from the league office. Such penalties could warrant a $7,500 fine, per league policy.

Gore actually had perfectly blocked safety Ronald Bartell, but guard Chilo Rachal joined in late on the block, and official John Parry stood by the call

Again, the intent of the chop block rule is to protect players. This infraction didn't even draw a fine. There is a good case to be made that it shouldn't have been called.

 

[Epic Voidfield]

Article 16 section 4.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf

On a forward pass play, A1 blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and A2,
simultaneously or immediately after the block by A1, engages the defensive player high.

Where in this case, A1 = Gore, and A2 = Rachal.

What about in real time?

NFL Videos: 49ers vs. Ravens highlights

About 18 seconds in is where you see the block in real time. Given where the official throws the flag and his field of vision...heh, tough to not call it?

 

[tzill]

Article 16 section 4.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf

On a forward pass play, A1 blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and A2,
simultaneously or immediately after the block by A1, engages the defensive player high.

Where in this case, A1 = Gore, and A2 = Rachal.

What about in real time?

NFL Videos: 49ers vs. Ravens highlights

About 18 seconds in is where you see the block in real time. Given where the official throws the flag and his field of vision...heh, tough to not call it?

I dunno. I respect your opinion, but to me it was tough to see Rachal even make contact.

Anyway, 9-2 and we move on.

 

[tzill]

I did notice the Donte Whitner whiff at 2:25....that was awful.

 

[vvoland]

its noted the call was ticky tack, but the bottom line.......a correct call. if its a correct call, then the Refs aren't 'tilting' the game.

similar with the PI on Brown, noted it wasn't a 'blatant' PI and sometimes its not called. but bottom line......on replays there was enough there to argue the PI call was correct.

my point is the degree to which the penalty occurred doesn't matter, what does matter is if its correct or not? since both were correct, then the Refs didn't make a "big" difference. again, we jump on other fans/coaches who make excuses, why are we doing it now?

i don't think of that call as an 'excuse.' we lost the game. we had plenty of opportunities and didn't come through. that does not, however, negate the fact that there were two very big plays that the refs, singlehandedly, gave to the ravens that resulted, directly, in a 10 point swing. both calls were borderline, and both calls went against the niners.

football is a game entirely in the grey area. the refs, if they so desired, could probably through a flag on every play. from holding on the o-line [though god knows our o-line didn't hold, as evidenced by the 9 sacks and 324 hits/hurries/etc], to illegal contact on DBs, to .. well, you get my point. i think the ref should have swallowed the whistle on the chop block, but that's my opinion. i'm sure i'm not as objective about it as i would have been watching the dolphins-cowboys game, but i do think it was a bullshit call.

but again, that's not the reason we lost the game. scheme, our o-line play, and a bevvy of other reasons that has to do with plays, preparation and performance contributed. the niners have been, however, on the wrong end of a lot of calls this season [the crabtree touchdown where he did NOT step out of bounds comes to mind] and thankfully we won despite those calls. the ravens game had a lot of factors tilted against us: road game [5th east coast this season], short week, snyder injury, etc.. we did not need the refs to add to that. in my opinion, they did. its one thing to call that chop block on a slant for a 7-yd gain. its another to take away our only big passing play in 37 weeks.

 

[deep9er]

i don't think of that call as an 'excuse.' we lost the game. we had plenty of opportunities and didn't come through. that does not, however, negate the fact that there were two very big plays that the refs, singlehandedly, gave to the ravens that resulted, directly, in a 10 point swing. both calls were borderline, and both calls went against the niners.

football is a game entirely in the grey area. the refs, if they so desired, could probably through a flag on every play. from holding on the o-line [though god knows our o-line didn't hold, as evidenced by the 9 sacks and 324 hits/hurries/etc], to illegal contact on DBs, to .. well, you get my point. i think the ref should have swallowed the whistle on the chop block, but that's my opinion. i'm sure i'm not as objective about it as i would have been watching the dolphins-cowboys game, but i do think it was a bullshit call.

but again, that's not the reason we lost the game. scheme, our o-line play, and a bevvy of other reasons that has to do with plays, preparation and performance contributed. the niners have been, however, on the wrong end of a lot of calls this season [the crabtree touchdown where he did NOT step out of bounds comes to mind] and thankfully we won despite those calls. the ravens game had a lot of factors tilted against us: road game [5th east coast this season], short week, snyder injury, etc.. we did not need the refs to add to that. in my opinion, they did. its one thing to call that chop block on a slant for a 7-yd gain. its another to take away our only big passing play in 37 weeks.

let me focus on just the penalty.........already agreed it was ticky tack meaning it could've been overlooked. but thats not the same as "the refs, singlehandedly, gave to the ravens"

saying it this way means we got jobbed, but we didn't get jobbed cause it WAS a penalty. whether it was a brutal chop block, mild chop block, or borderline chop block, its a chop block penalty.

so it wasn't overlooked and it got called on us, fine cause it WAS a penalty. whatever the play was doesn't matter, when a penalty is accepted, the play doesn't count. i highly doubt the Ref watches the result of the pass play before deciding to throw the flag?

 

[vvoland]

let me focus on just the penalty.........already agreed it was ticky tack meaning it could've been overlooked. but thats not the same as "the refs, singlehandedly, gave to the ravens"

saying it this way means we got jobbed, but we didn't get jobbed cause it WAS a penalty. whether it was a brutal chop block, mild chop block, or borderline chop block, its a chop block penalty.

so it wasn't overlooked and it got called on us, fine cause it WAS a penalty. whatever the play was doesn't matter, when a penalty is accepted, the play doesn't count. i highly doubt the Ref watches the result of the pass play before deciding to throw the flag?

singlehandedly means the ravens did nothing to deserve those calls. call me captain obvious and all but the ref singlehandedly throws a flag [on top of that, he throws it with a single hand]. let me put it another way. on the flacco td pass [and i'm just guessing here, i haven't gone back to look at that play] i'm willing to be there was an 0-lineman that was holding more than we chop blocked on the ginn td. as i said, football is played in a very gray area. refs can throw a flag on damn near every play. from false starts to encroachment to illegal contact to holding, there's something than CAN be called far more often that it IS.

and yes, the result of the play doesn't matter but in this case, it really hurt the team involved and took points off the board [in my opinion, those penalties need to be 100% not 50/50.. kind of like red cards in futbol or ejecting a team's best player in basketball]. its not the reason we lost but it certainly didn't help any. we can agree to disagree. i think the ref should have swallowed his whistle [and i do not think many ravens [players and fans] would have been upset/noticed] and you think it was the right call. on to the rams!

 

[Crimsoncrew]

you said it yourself..... "technically a violation", so if its technically correct, then it was also a correct penalty. don't get the whining about that was a 'bad call'?

next, your now trying to connect this penalty to a 'big difference' in the game? it was a correct call. btw - you TRY to connect but then hedge yourself?

if a linemen barely holds, then it shouldn't be a holding penalty? if a QB throws it away but 6 inches short of the LOS, it shouldn't be a grounding penalty? if a DL's hand is 6 inches in the LOS, then it shouldn't be an off-sides penalty?

Yes. All of those things go uncalled constantly (I might say two inches instead of six, but it makes no difference), and they should go uncalled. There is holding - either offensive or defensive - on virtually every NFL play if we're looking at the letter of the law. Ahmad Brooks lives on the other side of the LOS at the snap at times (and when it's every play it should be called, but being in inch across the line once or twice a game shouldn't be). And if the QB is outside the pocket and gets near the LOS, grounding is almost never called.

These penalties aren't called when they are minor violations and/or they don't affect the play. In this case, Gore hit a guy low, legally. Rachal then gave an additional shove as he was already going down. It was no more dangerous than a normal play in which a RB goes low, which is the point of the penalty. It was a bad call, and the NFL effectively acknowledged as much by not assessing a fine.

As far as hedging, there's no way of saying what would have happened if that TD stays up there. What do you want me to say, that they definitely would have won if they score there? No one can do that. But there is absolutely no doubt that 75-yard TD would have made a big difference in the game.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Article 16 section 4.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf

On a forward pass play, A1 blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and A2,
simultaneously or immediately after the block by A1, engages the defensive player high.

Where in this case, A1 = Gore, and A2 = Rachal.

What about in real time?

NFL Videos: 49ers vs. Ravens highlights

About 18 seconds in is where you see the block in real time. Given where the official throws the flag and his field of vision...heh, tough to not call it?

It's technically a reverse chop, and I don't know if I've ever seen it called before this week. It was clear even in real time that Gore hit first.

For the record, Parry called it wrong by failing to refer to it as a reverse chop, so if we want to get really technical, it was definitely the wrong call.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

i don't think of that call as an 'excuse.' we lost the game. we had plenty of opportunities and didn't come through. that does not, however, negate the fact that there were two very big plays that the refs, singlehandedly, gave to the ravens that resulted, directly, in a 10 point swing. both calls were borderline, and both calls went against the niners.

football is a game entirely in the grey area. the refs, if they so desired, could probably through a flag on every play. from holding on the o-line [though god knows our o-line didn't hold, as evidenced by the 9 sacks and 324 hits/hurries/etc], to illegal contact on DBs, to .. well, you get my point. i think the ref should have swallowed the whistle on the chop block, but that's my opinion. i'm sure i'm not as objective about it as i would have been watching the dolphins-cowboys game, but i do think it was a bullshit call.

but again, that's not the reason we lost the game. scheme, our o-line play, and a bevvy of other reasons that has to do with plays, preparation and performance contributed. the niners have been, however, on the wrong end of a lot of calls this season [the crabtree touchdown where he did NOT step out of bounds comes to mind] and thankfully we won despite those calls. the ravens game had a lot of factors tilted against us: road game [5th east coast this season], short week, snyder injury, etc.. we did not need the refs to add to that. in my opinion, they did. its one thing to call that chop block on a slant for a 7-yd gain. its another to take away our only big passing play in 37 weeks.

I agree with much of this. Re: the part in bold, I heard four or five sports personalities bemoan the call as ridiculous, including Mayock who was announcing the game. I haven't heard anyone say it was a clear penalty and the right call.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

let me focus on just the penalty.........already agreed it was ticky tack meaning it could've been overlooked. but thats not the same as "the refs, singlehandedly, gave to the ravens"

saying it this way means we got jobbed, but we didn't get jobbed cause it WAS a penalty. whether it was a brutal chop block, mild chop block, or borderline chop block, its a chop block penalty.

so it wasn't overlooked and it got called on us, fine cause it WAS a penalty. whatever the play was doesn't matter, when a penalty is accepted, the play doesn't count. i highly doubt the Ref watches the result of the pass play before deciding to throw the flag?

I disagree with this, too. Whether right or wrong, officials will frequently wave off a flag if it's a big play and the penalty was borderline and didn't impact the outcome.

 

[DoobieKeebler]

coupled with the PI call later in the game its not surprising to see fans upset that the refs had such a direct impact on the game.

As 49ers fans we tend to drink the Kool Aid, but the PI call on Brown was 100% legitimate.

 

[MHSL82]

Yes. All of those things go uncalled constantly (I might say two inches instead of six, but it makes no difference), and they should go uncalled. There is holding - either offensive or defensive - on virtually every NFL play if we're looking at the letter of the law. Ahmad Brooks lives on the other side of the LOS at the snap at times (and when it's every play it should be called, but being in inch across the line once or twice a game shouldn't be). And if the QB is outside the pocket and gets near the LOS, grounding is almost never called.

These penalties aren't called when they are minor violations and/or they don't affect the play. In this case, Gore hit a guy low, legally. Rachal then gave an additional shove as he was already going down. It was no more dangerous than a normal play in which a RB goes low, which is the point of the penalty. It was a bad call, and the NFL effectively acknowledged as much by not assessing a fine.

As far as hedging, there's no way of saying what would have happened if that TD stays up there. What do you want me to say, that they definitely would have won if they score there? No one can do that. But there is absolutely no doubt that 75-yard TD would have made a big difference in the game.

Exactly. Holding calls are made because if everyone could hold, this game would be pointless. Everyone on both teams would be prevented from doing anything, with the offense most likely winning most often. However, the chop block, is there purely for the danger of the move. When the reason for the rule is eliminated, so should the rule. I, for one, if Flacco won on a TD with that block uncalled, may have pointed it out, but not have screamed it from the rooftops. I wouldn't have screamed foul.

 

[deep9er]

I disagree with this, too. Whether right or wrong, officials will frequently wave off a flag if it's a big play and the penalty was borderline and didn't impact the outcome.

yes it is about right or wrong, was it a penalty or not? if you say yes, then you agree with me. this wasn't a gray area call, it was a penalty in accordance with the rules.

in other games sometimes it isn't called, but in THIS case it was so drop that argument about borderline. since it WAS called, was it a penalty or not?