Who Gets the Loss?

[calsnowskier]

I have two scenarios here, one where the “Loss” is obvious, one where I have no idea who would be credited with the loss…

Scenario 1

- Bottom of the 9th, tie game.
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runner 1st)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Pitcher C sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch D (bases loaded)
- Pitcher D enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter D. Batter A scores. Game over.
- Pitcher A takes the loss.

Scenario 2

- Bottom of the 10th, tie game. Runner X on 2nd
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (bases loaded)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Runner X scores. Game over.
- Runner X did not “belong” to any of the pitchers, and each pitcher equally contributed to the loss. By existing rules, no pitcher actually qualifies for the loss.

 

[fightinfunbags]

The Turk. You always give the loss to the Turk.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I have two scenarios here, one where the “Loss” is obvious, one where I have no idea who would be credited with the loss…

Scenario 1

- Bottom of the 9th, tie game.
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runner 1st)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Pitcher C sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch D (bases loaded)
- Pitcher D enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter D. Batter A scores. Game over.
- Pitcher A takes the loss.

Scenario 2

- Bottom of the 10th, tie game. Runner X on 2nd
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (bases loaded)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Runner X scores. Game over.
- Runner X did not “belong” to any of the pitchers, and each pitcher equally contributed to the loss. By existing rules, no pitcher actually qualifies for the loss.

would still be pitcher A as he had the first opportunity to prevent a score... and failed...

what would make it more interesting is if Pitcher A gets an out for his first and only batter... then what happens...

Runner X complicates the W/L stat like no other...

 

[Cedrique]

I have two scenarios here, one where the “Loss” is obvious, one where I have no idea who would be credited with the loss…

Scenario 1

- Bottom of the 9th, tie game.
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runner 1st)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Pitcher C sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch D (bases loaded)
- Pitcher D enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter D. Batter A scores. Game over.
- Pitcher A takes the loss.

Scenario 2

- Bottom of the 10th, tie game. Runner X on 2nd
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (bases loaded)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Runner X scores. Game over.
- Runner X did not “belong” to any of the pitchers, and each pitcher equally contributed to the loss. By existing rules, no pitcher actually qualifies for the loss.

Maybe they don't give it to anybody. "Nobody gets a loss, everybody gets a trophy"

 

[calsnowskier]

would still be pitcher A as he had the first opportunity to prevent a score... and failed...

what would make it more interesting is if Pitcher A gets an out for his first and only batter... then what happens...

Runner X complicates the W/L stat like no other...

But Pitcher A did not allow a score, nor did the batter he put on base score. In fact, his inclusion in the game really had no bearing on anything. He didn’t advance the lead (winning) runner and his runner didn’t score.

The Win CAN go to a pitcher based on scorers discretion if the starter did not go 5 (this rule makes no sense anymore, if it ever did), but there are no rules regarding issuing the Loss based on scorers discretion. If you allow for scorers discretion in the Loss stat, than OK, but as it sits now, that does not exist (as far as I know). Pitcher A recording an out still changes nothing as far as the inning‘s progression goes. He did not allow Runner X on base (this is specifically stated in the rules), and he did not allow him to advance. It is almost as if Pitcher A never entered the game.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But Pitcher A did not allow a score, nor did the batter he put on base score. In fact, his inclusion in the game really had no bearing on anything. He didn’t advance the lead (winning) runner and his runner didn’t score.

The Win CAN go to a pitcher based on scorers discretion if the starter did not go 5 (this rule makes no sense anymore, if it ever did), but there are no rules regarding issuing the Loss based on scorers discretion. If you allow for scorers discretion in the Loss stat, than OK, but as it sits now, that does not exist (as far as I know). Pitcher A recording an out still changes nothing as far as the inning‘s progression goes. He did not allow Runner X on base (this is specifically stated in the rules), and he did not allow him to advance. It is almost as if Pitcher A never entered the game.

but runner X did advance because of the batter he faced, without the man on base then runner X would not have scored with 3 walks...

so, he might not have advanced when pitcher A pitched, but pitcher As batter was still the reason Runner X scored..

and pitcher A was still the first pitcher to allow a runner on base in the inning that scored a run...

i think it would be more interesting of a question if runner X starts at 2nd

Pitcher A- pitches to batter A, Batter A ground out, runner X goes to third... Pitcher A dies, so pitcher B replaces him

Pitcher B- pitcher B throws to batter B, Batter B sac Fly, scores in runner X, then strikes out batter C

who is more responsible for Runner X to score, Pitcher A or pitcher B?? i think under my understanding of the rules Pitcher A would still get that Loss

 

[calsnowskier]

Ok, how about this…

Larry Yount is scheduled to start the inning, is announced and takes the mound.

Then everything else happens as discussed.

Does Yount take the loss?

 

[Cedrique]

That ghost runner thing does make some weird box scores. I was looking at the one for last night's Phillies Giants game. Strahm comes in, the manager has him intentionally walk the first guy, then he gives up two fly balls where the runner advances and takes the loss. So in the box score there are no errors by the Phillies but Strahm is charged with giving up a run, but not an earned run and he also gets a loss.

 

[broncosmitty]

Whoever is credited with giving up the deciding run.

There’s a lot of words up there. But it really is rather simple.

 

[Cedrique]

Whoever is credited with giving up the deciding run.

There’s a lot of words up there. But it really is rather simple.

Yeah it's still kind of a weird situation. The guy that gets the glory of coming across the plate with the winning run is the guy who failed the previous inning.

 

[broncosmitty]

Yeah it's still kind of a weird situation. The guy that gets the glory of coming across the plate with the winning run is the guy who failed the previous inning.

Lots of words got you to there.

I did not have the patience.

Dude gives up go ahead run. Dude gets L.

 

[calsnowskier]

Lots of words got you to there.

I did not have the patience.

Dude gives up go ahead run. Dude gets L.

But the two situations I represented follow two totally different logics to determine the loser.

As a programmer, I have a really hard time accepting that.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But the two situations I represented follow two totally different logics to determine the loser.

As a programmer, I have a really hard time accepting that.

the ghost runner does complicate things... but your hypothetical is also a very rare and specific situation...

But i would think about it this way... if the ghost runner scores, and is the deciding run then the loss goes to the FIRST pitcher that improves the odds of that runner scoring

now, i am not sure if this is correct... especially with the discretion of the scorer... but thats the way i would score... under the rules that i currently understand...

 

[calsnowskier]

the ghost runner does complicate things... but your hypothetical is also a very rare and specific situation...

But i would think about it this way... if the ghost runner scores, and is the deciding run then the loss goes to the FIRST pitcher that improves the odds of that runner scoring

now, i am not sure if this is correct... especially with the discretion of the scorer... but thats the way i would score... under the rules that i currently understand...

Without the ghost runner, the calculation to determine the loser is pretty simple…

Whoever is responsible for the runner who scored the final go-ahead run gets the loss.

It may be bogus, but it is programmatic, thus less “controversial”. But with the ghost runner, where no one is responsible for the ghost runner, scorers opinion needs to come into play. My introduction of the Larry Yount wrinkle adds even more confusion to the situation.

With the Larry Yount inclusion, who would actually take the loss?

Yount? He started the inning, though didn’t throw a single pitch. Is he now responsible for the ghost runner?
Pitcher A? He threw the first pitch of the inning, and didn’t record an out. His runner, while not advancing the ghost, now made any further baserunners able to auto-advance him.
Pitcher B? I don’t see much of an argument for this guy to take the loss. Though he was technically the first to allow the winning run to advance.
Pitcher C? This guy performed the specific action that lead to the losing run. But he wasn’t responsible for the shitshow situation he inherited.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Without the ghost runner, the calculation to determine the loser is pretty simple…

Whoever is responsible for the runner who scored the final go-ahead run gets the loss.

It may be bogus, but it is programmatic, thus less “controversial”. But with the ghost runner, where no one is responsible for the ghost runner, scorers opinion needs to come into play. My introduction of the Larry Yount wrinkle adds even more confusion to the situation.

With the Larry Yount inclusion, who would actually take the loss?

Yount? He started the inning, though didn’t throw a single pitch. Is he now responsible for the ghost runner?
Pitcher A? He threw the first pitch of the inning, and didn’t record an out. His runner, while not advancing the ghost, now made any further baserunners able to auto-advance him.
Pitcher B? I don’t see much of an argument for this guy to take the loss. Though he was technically the first to allow the winning run to advance.
Pitcher C? This guy performed the specific action that lead to the losing run. But he wasn’t responsible for the shitshow situation he inherited.

did yount do anything?? you say he didnt throw a pitch, but did the runner advance on his watch??

if not then it has to be A... as he was the first pitcher that actually threw a pitch, and he did not help his team...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

maybe have a ghost pitcher... last pitcher to let up a run... earned or not...

 

[calsnowskier]

There are two questions on the table right now.

1) Who ACTUALLY gets the loss, as the rules are currently written? I legit do not know the answer to this question.

2) Who SHOULD get the loss? This is a theoretical thought exercise.

 

[calsnowskier]

did yount do anything?? you say he didnt throw a pitch, but did the runner advance on his watch??

if not then it has to be A... as he was the first pitcher that actually threw a pitch, and he did not help his team...

Yount took the mound. He was announced as entering the game and is officially in the books as a pitcher in the game. But he threw out his arm during the on-field warm ups and never threw another pitch professionally.

 

[Cyder]

I have two scenarios here, one where the “Loss” is obvious, one where I have no idea who would be credited with the loss…

Scenario 1

- Bottom of the 9th, tie game.
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runner 1st)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Pitcher C sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch D (bases loaded)
- Pitcher D enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter D. Batter A scores. Game over.
- Pitcher A takes the loss.

Scenario 2

- Bottom of the 10th, tie game. Runner X on 2nd
- Pitcher A enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter A. Pitcher A sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch B (runners on 1st and 2nd)
- Pitcher B enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter B. Pitcher B sprains his arm (or whatever) and is replaced by Pitch C (bases loaded)
- Pitcher C enters the game fresh and issues a walk to Batter C. Runner X scores. Game over.
- Runner X did not “belong” to any of the pitchers, and each pitcher equally contributed to the loss. By existing rules, no pitcher actually qualifies for the loss.

The loss goes to whichever NY Met is pitcher C.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

There are two questions on the table right now.

1) Who ACTUALLY gets the loss, as the rules are currently written? I legit do not know the answer to this question.

2) Who SHOULD get the loss? This is a theoretical thought exercise.

as written it is discretion to the scorer... so... there is no real answer... but scorers all seem to have the same qualifications.. so it does seem uniform...
now the SHOULD get the loss is another question... and much harder to answer... is it the WHO SHOULD UNDER THE RULES WE THINK WE UNDERSTAND, or the WHO WAS THE MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TEAM TO LOSE... two totally different answers...

if a pitcher gave up more than one run, they are more deserving for the loss than these ghost runner hypotheticals...